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Featured LDS Joseph Smith on getting to Heaven thru suicide...

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by devin553344, Apr 13, 2019.

  1. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    I was in the LDS church some years ago before I converted to Christianity and was taught a few times that Joseph Smith said the following, which I will quote from an LDS site:

    "And on Friday last while speaking at the Funeral of Matilda Moody he said we should improve the present time and do all we could for our dead ere death called us away. He [referred] to a saying of Joseph Smith, which he heard him utter (like this) That if the People knew what was behind the vail, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there, but the Lord in his wisdom had implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their creator" (A. Karl Larson, Katherine Miles Larson, "Diary of Charles Lowell Walker," Utah State University Digital Commons)."

    Now you'll notice that Joseph Smith didn't in fact commit suicide. It's therefore suggested that he feared death. Which is interesting because I don't believe a true prophet of God fears death, knowing they are secure in the Holy Spirit.

    So what does that mean, was he told that revelation by some spirit? And if so which spirit would suggest such a thing? Was Joseph Smith suggesting that suicide can lead to heaven, or the spirit that suggested that saying? Is that an evil suggestion in your mind?
     
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  2. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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  3. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    Well it was in fact taught to me and others at the LDS Church. Which is why I posted it. And it is on LDSLiving.com's website for discussion which states:

    "This is the only written record we have of this quote from Joseph Smith, but it's made its rounds over time. In some cases, it has even been adapted to refer to the telestial kingdom. Or sometimes it's even been sourced as something Brigham Young once said."

    I would think the churches Policies are in affect for the churches stance on suicide:


    21.4.14

    Suicide
    It is wrong to take a life, including one’s own. However, a person who commits suicide may not be responsible for his or her acts. Only God can judge such a matter.

    The family, in consultation with the bishop, determines the place and nature of a funeral service for a person who has died under such circumstances. Church facilities may be used. If the person was endowed, he or she may be buried in temple clothing.


    Which is from lds.org 21. Selected Church Policies and Guidelines

    And this from the link in the OP indicates that it is in fact being taught in LDS church:

    "Part of this may have come from a quote handed down through the generations. On August 19, 1877, Charles W. Walker recorded an alleged saying Wilford Woodruff heard from Joseph Smith. It's the quote we use as Mormons to describe the majesty of the three degrees of glory. But it's also a quote recorded third-hand years after the death of Joseph Smith."
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  4. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    And...?
    Are you upset that LDS folks do not flat out blanket condemn a person who was struggling with mental illness and tragically succumbed to it?
     
  5. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    No, I also agree that God will have to judge the suicide victims. But that's getting off topic for the OP.
     
  6. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    I was addressing the topic of suicide and the LDS stance on it. If that not the purpose of this thread?
     
  7. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    The OP addresses a quote from Joseph Smith regarding revelation beyond the veil. And the induced suicidal compulsion it would cause according to him. It's clear from the OP link that the church is in fact teaching that principle as I was taught it also.

    But the OP asked certain questions regarding that. But I can ask, do you think experiencing heaven will lead to suicidal compulsions?
     
  8. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I'm a practical-focused person. I don't see much value in discussing a he-said-she-said quote that any person can freely agree or disagree with. I responded because suicide is an important topic that has impacted a lot of people.
     
  9. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    I was addressing what is being taught in LDS church. That is the OP. From the OP link:

    "It's the quote we use as Mormons to describe the majesty of the three degrees of glory."
     
  10. Jane_Doe

    Jane_Doe Well-Known Member

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    Again, I don't see much value in discussing a he-said-she-said quote that any person can freely agree or disagree with. If you want to have a thread on it, by all means you're welcome to, but I would rather be doing other things, and will unsubscribe here.

    Have a nice day.
     
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  11. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    Well that is interesting, sorry your leaving the conversation, but as you said anyone can agree or disagree with that quote. But I don't see it that way, there is only one way to interpret it and be in agreement with scripture.
     
  12. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    Getting to the spirit world through suicide is not taught in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. I don't believe Joseph Smith was afraid to die:
    (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 135:4)

    4 When Joseph went to Carthage to deliver himself up to the pretended requirements of the law, two or three days previous to his assassination, he said: "I am going like a lamb to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer's morning; I have a conscience void of offense towards God, and towards all men. I SHALL DIE INNOCENT, AND IT SHALL YET BE SAID OF ME—HE WAS MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD."—The same morning, after Hyrum had made ready to go—shall it be said to the slaughter? yes, for so it was—he read the following paragraph, near the close of the twelfth chapter of Ether, in the Book of Mormon, and turned down the leaf upon it:
     
  13. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    Thank you but that doesn't really address the OP correctly. Can you answer whether you believe that quote or not? And if so why or why not?
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
  14. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    A long time ago I heard that if people knew what heaven was like they would kill themselves to get there, but then they wouldn't get there. I am not sure where the story this originated from. I have been a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints for 62 years and never heard anyone advocate the use of suicide to get to the other side of the veil. In fact the story you eluded to has been declared a myth:
    Where the Myth That Those Who Commit Suicide End Up in the Telestial Kingdom Originates | LDS Living
     
  15. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    Thank you, because I also heard the story and it was presented at church. No I don't think someone should consider suicide either. I think it would be a terrible mistake. But I would like to be on topic. And the title and meat of the story are not totally in agreement. It does state that it is used in LDS teaching regarding the after life kingdoms. Which is how it was presented to me.

    "It's the quote we use as Mormons to describe the majesty of the three degrees of glory.
     
  16. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    it's also a little known quote recorded third-hand by Charles Walker years after Joseph Smith died. Therefore I don't believe that Joseph Smith actually said it. I don't know why anyone would present this story at church except to declare it as a myth because someone brought it up as a question. I have never seen this story in any of the church manuals. It is obviously not "the quote we use as Mormons to describe the majesty of the three degrees of glory."
     
  17. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    Yes it's a strange witness statement sort of recorded in an associates diary. I think that is what the statement says:

    "(A. Karl Larson, Katherine Miles Larson, "Diary of Charles Lowell Walker," Utah State University Digital Commons)"
     
  18. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    Accounts of what was said or not said vary, but the general understanding is that it was more of a rhetorical point than anything else.
     
  19. devin553344

    devin553344 My Brain's Offline But My Heart Isn't

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    rhetorical or not do you believe that heaven is like that. What the quote explains it to be like?
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I also remember that quote and think it was to make people believe that the kingdoms of glory are substantially better than earth life. I personally believe that any place outside of God's presence would definitely be hell.
     
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