LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

Peter1000 · Nov 19, 2020

mmksparbud said:
LOL! I couldn't make this stuff up!

11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had aseed, and never should have bknown good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

"Adam did not commit sin in eating the fruit for God had decreed that he should eat and fall. . . . That he should die was the saying of the Lord, therefore the Lord appointed us to fall and also redeemed us. . . . (Joseph Smith).

Just why the Lord would say to Adam that he forbade him to partake of the fruit of that tree is not made clear in the Bible account, but in the original as it comes to us in the book of Moses it is made definitely clear. It is that the Lord said to Adam that if he wished to remain as he was in the garden, then he was not to eat the fruit, but if he desired to eat it and partake of death he was at liberty to do so. So really it was not in the true sense a transgression of a divine commandment. Adam made the wise decision, in fact the only decision that he could make.

It was the divine plan from the very beginning that man should be placed on the earth and be subject to mortal conditions and pass through a probationary state as explained in the Book of Mormon where he and his posterity would be subject to all mortal conditions. – Joseph Fielding Smith, “Was the Fall of Adam Necessary?” Improvement Era, Apr. 1962, p. 231

Adam did only what he had to do. He partook of that fruit for one good reason, and that was to open the door to bring you and me and everyone else into this world, for Adam and Eve could have remained in the Garden of Eden; they could have been there to this day, if Eve hadn’t done something.

One of these days, if I ever get to where I can speak to Mother Eve, I want to thank her for tempting Adam to partake of the fruit. He accepted the temptation, with the result that children came into this world. And when I kneel in prayer, I feel to thank Mother Eve, for if she hadn’t had that influence over Adam, and if Adam had done according to the commandment first given to him, they would still be in the Garden of Eden and we would not be here at all. We wouldn’t have come into this world. . . . – Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, Oct 1967, pp. 121-122

You can put all the lipstick on this pig that you want---it boils down to we should be grateful to Satan for the fall for without him tempting Eve, none of us would be here and Adam and Eve would still be all alone in the garden!!! They had to sin in order to obey God!!! How convoluted can you get!!

You tell me then, if we believe that the Lord knew the fall was going to happen, we also know how he was going to pull it off, and that is why he allowed satan into the garden. Satan did play a roll in the fall, but it was a role that the Lord created for him. So no we are not grateful to satan, we are grateful that the Lord contolled the fall, even though he used satan to accomplish it.

We are also grateful that the Lord created a way for all mankind to get back into the presence of the Lord, by ordaining that Jesus be sacrificed for the sins of all mankind, and this ordination was done before the fall even took place. So the Lord knew it would happen, he even knew he would use satan to help it along, and he knew Jesus would save us. That is what we glorify, not satan, he is the liar and murderer from the beginning and has no glory. Get used to it.

mmksparbud · Nov 19, 2020

Peter1000 said:
You tell me then, if we believe that the Lord knew the fall was going to happen, we also know how he was going to pull it off, and that is why he allowed satan into the garden. Satan did play a roll in the fall, but it was a role that the Lord created for him. So no we are not grateful to satan, we are grateful that the Lord contolled the fall, even though he used satan to accomplish it.

We are also grateful that the Lord created a way for all mankind to get back into the presence of the Lord, by ordaining that Jesus be sacrificed for the sins of all mankind, and this ordination was done before the fall even took place. So the Lord knew it would happen, he even knew he would use satan to help it along, and he knew Jesus would save us. That is what we glorify, not satan, he is the liar and murderer from the beginning and has no glory. Get used to it.

The fall was never needed!!! Adam and Eve had free will---there was no need to fall in order to have children. God did not have them sin in order to have children, He had already given them orders to be fruitful and multip0ly!!! Did the animals have to sin in order to breed? Just further proof that JS was not of God---been over this time and time again---the fall did not have to happen in order for Adam and Eve to have children!!! Children are a gift from God---not Satan!! You can say anything you want and it is very clear that your prophets felt that we should be grateful for the fall, which means being grateful to Satan!! All out a brazen and stupid lie! I don't care how you want to word it---boils down to Adam and Eve were forced to sin in order to give humanity children-- Total and complete Bull.

Peter1000 · Nov 20, 2020

mmksparbud said:
The fall was never needed!!! Adam and Eve had free will---there was no need to fall in order to have children. God did not have them sin in order to have children, He had already given them orders to be fruitful and multip0ly!!! Did the animals have to sin in order to breed? Just further proof that JS was not of God---been over this time and time again---the fall did not have to happen in order for Adam and Eve to have children!!! Children are a gift from God---not Satan!! You can say anything you want and it is very clear that your prophets felt that we should be grateful for the fall, which means being grateful to Satan!! All out a brazen and stupid lie! I don't care how you want to word it---boils down to Adam and Eve were forced to sin in order to give humanity children-- Total and complete Bull.

The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing. IOW show me the scripture that tells us what you believe, that given enough time in the garden, A&E would have figured out how to have children. All we know is that before A&E were given their bodies, Jesus was already annointed to save them from the fall.

If there was no need for the fall, why annoint Jesus our Savior before the earth was even created?

Again, we thank God for the fall, not satan. Satan has no glory, and no praise from us. Just a misguided notion that the Church of Jesus Christ would have any thankfulness for anything satan did. Simply obsurd, and you know it. Just because satan had a roll in the fall, does not mean that we are thankful to him for anything. It was God that created satans roll, take it up with Him.

mmksparbud · Nov 20, 2020

Peter1000 said:
The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing. IOW show me the scripture that tells us what you believe, that given enough time in the garden, A&E would have figured out how to have children. All we know is that before A&E were given their bodies, Jesus was already annointed to save them from the fall.

If there was no need for the fall, why annoint Jesus our Savior before the earth was even created?

Again, we thank God for the fall, not satan. Satan has no glory, and no praise from us. Just a misguided notion that the Church of Jesus Christ would have any thankfulness for anything satan did. Simply obsurd, and you know it. Just because satan had a roll in the fall, does not mean that we are thankful to him for anything. It was God that created satans roll, take it up with Him.

YOU CAN READ THE ENTIRE CEREMONY HERE:
This is a small excerpt.

The Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

(Lucifer draws his cloak up to reveal a black apron.)

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and Priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

(The Gods' voices are suddenly heard in the garden.)

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam and Eve that we would visit them and give them further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices, they are coming.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

ADAM: Come, let us hide.

NARRATOR: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

"The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing."

If that is true---why then do your prophets all say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they fell? You make up a whole thing stating they could not but to say that they could have is not biblical!!! They were given the command to do so---they were bound to that command and had to obey it just as all the animals had to obey. To not do so would have been disobedience. That would have been sin! Were the animals not able to do as God commanded also??? You failed to answer that question.
And nothing in the bible says anything about Jesus being "anointed"---Jesus is God---with the Father and Holy Spirit--He needed no anointing! He is the creator of all, including Lucifer! It is He that made the decision to come down as a man and save His own creation. He was not some "spiritual child" of the Father and some heavenly wife!! God has given us what happened in the garden---it is you who are making thi9ngs up contrary to what is plainly written. It is you that needs to "take it up with God." I have His word, you have JS. We are not saved by the words of JS, but by the words of Jesus Christ, the Creator of all. No one needs to be grateful for the fall!!

He is the way · Nov 20, 2020

mmksparbud said:
YOU CAN READ THE ENTIRE CEREMONY HERE:
This is a small excerpt.

The Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

(Lucifer draws his cloak up to reveal a black apron.)

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and Priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

(The Gods' voices are suddenly heard in the garden.)

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam and Eve that we would visit them and give them further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices, they are coming.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

ADAM: Come, let us hide.

NARRATOR: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

"The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing."

If that is true---why then do your prophets all say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they fell? You make up a whole thing stating they could not but to say that they could have is not biblical!!! They were given the command to do so---they were bound to that command and had to obey it just as all the animals had to obey. To not do so would have been disobedience. That would have been sin! Were the animals not able to do as God commanded also??? You failed to answer that question.
And nothing in the bible says anything about Jesus being "anointed"---Jesus is God---with the Father and Holy Spirit--He needed no anointing! He is the creator of all, including Lucifer! It is He that made the decision to come down as a man and save His own creation. He was not some "spiritual child" of the Father and some heavenly wife!! God has given us what happened in the garden---it is you who are making thi9ngs up contrary to what is plainly written. It is you that needs to "take it up with God." I have His word, you have JS. We are not saved by the words of JS, but by the words of Jesus Christ, the Creator of all. No one needs to be grateful for the fall!!

That is your opinion, I also have a opinion and it differs from yours. The opinions of people who have had near death experiences also disagree with your opinion.

mmksparbud · Nov 20, 2020

He is the way said:
That is your opinion, I also have a opinion and it differs from yours. The opinions of people who have had near death experiences also disagree with your opinion.

What do NDE have anything to do with what happened in the garden of Eden? Your, or mine, opinions do not matter---What scripture says is what matters for it is the word of God.

He is the way · Nov 20, 2020

mmksparbud said:
What do NDE have anything to do with what happened in the garden of Eden? Your, or mine, opinions do not matter---What scripture says is what matters for it is the word of God.

There are many people who have died before their time and have come back to tell about their time in the spirit world. Many of them have come back with abilities they didn't have before that experience. Their lives have changed drastically after their experience. I have read over 50 books from people who have returned from the spirit world and I know there is a lot of truth there. Saying that Adam and Eve could have children in the garden of Eden doesn't make it so, so why didn't they? No one knows if they were capable of having children. We don't even know how old they were. It is wrong to assume that they were old enough to have children.

Peter1000 · Nov 20, 2020

mmksparbud said:
YOU CAN READ THE ENTIRE CEREMONY HERE:
This is a small excerpt.

The Mormon Temple Endowment Ceremony

ADAM: What is that apron you have on?

(Lucifer draws his cloak up to reveal a black apron.)

LUCIFER: It is an emblem of my power and Priesthoods.

ADAM: I am looking for Father to come down to give us further instructions.

LUCIFER: Oh, you are looking for Father to come down, are you?

(The Gods' voices are suddenly heard in the garden.)

ELOHIM: Jehovah, we promised Adam and Eve that we would visit them and give them further instructions. Come, let us go down.

JEHOVAH: We will go down, Elohim.

ADAM: I hear their voices, they are coming.

LUCIFER: See, you are naked. Take some fig leaves and make you aprons. Father will see your nakedness. Quick! Hide!

ADAM: Come, let us hide.

NARRATOR: Brethren and sisters, put on your aprons.

"The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing."

If that is true---why then do your prophets all say that Adam and Eve could not have children unless they fell? You make up a whole thing stating they could not but to say that they could have is not biblical!!! They were given the command to do so---they were bound to that command and had to obey it just as all the animals had to obey. To not do so would have been disobedience. That would have been sin! Were the animals not able to do as God commanded also??? You failed to answer that question.
And nothing in the bible says anything about Jesus being "anointed"---Jesus is God---with the Father and Holy Spirit--He needed no anointing! He is the creator of all, including Lucifer! It is He that made the decision to come down as a man and save His own creation. He was not some "spiritual child" of the Father and some heavenly wife!! God has given us what happened in the garden---it is you who are making thi9ngs up contrary to what is plainly written. It is you that needs to "take it up with God." I have His word, you have JS. We are not saved by the words of JS, but by the words of Jesus Christ, the Creator of all. No one needs to be grateful for the fall!!

The word "Messiah" means "the anointed one". We all know who the Messiah is, Jesus Christ, so I suspect he was anointed to be the savior long before the fall took place.

You say no one needs to be grateful for the fall!!.
Here are several reasons why we believe the fall was necessary.

If A&E had stayed true to their garden experience, there never would have been a fall.
1) We would not have had a mortal existence. Our mortal existence is necessary to continue to prove that outside of God's presence, we would continue to love Him and to do as he has commanded. Prove that we were worthy of his great blessings.
2) We would not have experienced good and evil. We would not have had a chance to choose with our free will the good over the evil.
3) We would not have had the opportunity to do evil and come to understand that doing good is a much better path to follow through our experiences.
4) We would not experience the saving power of our Savior. Feeling the refreshing nature of repentence and feeling the exhilerating expansion of growth as we came to stand with Jesus on our own 2 feet with the grace of Jesus.
5) We would never experience the tremendous emotions of dying, and being resurrected, and then hearing the words, "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into My house".

I know you think that it would be much better to have stayed in the garden, but how would we get out of the garden and back to God in heaven? Any thoughs?

mmksparbud · Nov 20, 2020

He is the way said:
There are many people who have died before their time and have come back to tell about their time in the spirit world. Many of them have come back with abilities they didn't have before that experience. Their lives have changed drastically after their experience. I have read over 50 books from people who have returned from the spirit world and I know there is a lot of truth there. Saying that Adam and Eve could have children in the garden of Eden doesn't make it so, so why didn't they? No one knows if they were capable of having children. We don't even know how old they were. It is wrong to assume that they were old enough to have children.

Just not enough time yet. Your speculation that they couldn't makes God a weak, ineffectual God whos commands do not need to be obeyed. Seriously? When God speaks even the elements obey. Your God commands and nobody has to listen, ours is a real God and when He says something will be done it will be. God does not force His creation to have sex! Adam and Eve were not animals---she didn't even have a name until after the fall! Most people need a little time to get to know each other before jumping in the sack. But then, you are speaking as men and wouldn't understand about that as all that LDS men seem to be interested is in sex and having many wives to do it with. Seems that Adam had better manners than most LDS men can comprehend. God doesn't intend to reduce the sex act to one of see and conquer, it is meant as an expression of love and that, does take a little time.

None of which has anything to do with NDE---I've had 2---nothing but blackness.

mmksparbud · Nov 20, 2020

Peter1000 said:
The word "Messiah" means "the anointed one". We all know who the Messiah is, Jesus Christ, so I suspect he was anointed to be the savior long before the fall took place.

You say no one needs to be grateful for the fall!!.
Here are several reasons why we believe the fall was necessary.

If A&E had stayed true to their garden experience, there never would have been a fall.
1) We would not have had a mortal existence. Our mortal existence is necessary to continue to prove that outside of God's presence, we would continue to love Him and to do as he has commanded. Prove that we were worthy of his great blessings.
2) We would not have experienced good and evil. We would not have had a chance to choose with our free will the good over the evil.
3) We would not have had the opportunity to do evil and come to understand that doing good is a much better path to follow through our experiences.
4) We would not experience the saving power of our Savior. Feeling the refreshing nature of repentence and feeling the exhilerating expansion of growth as we came to stand with Jesus on our own 2 feet with the grace of Jesus.
5) We would never experience the tremendous emotions of dying, and being resurrected, and then hearing the words, "well done thou good and faithful servant, enter into My house".

I know you think that it would be much better to have stayed in the garden, but how would we get out of the garden and back to God in heaven? Any thoughs?

Good grief! We were created to inhabit this earth---what in the world makes you think we needed to leave it to be with God? He came down to us!! Jesus is the one that created us, He was God and needed no anointing until He came to this earth and He was baptized by John!! We were never meant to experience death, pain , sorrow. We would never have known anything but peace, joy and love like all the other unfallen worlds. What garbage that experiencing death, pain, grief and sin was ever a part of God's plan for us! All your speculations are, quite frankly---rather disgusting and shows what little you know of the true God!! Further proof that JS is not of God and that we serve 2 totally and completely different Gods! Ours is one of love, compassion, joy, peace, yours is ineffectual, powerless, dictator who gives sorrow and pain and death and forces 2 innocent people to sin in order to obey Him! Thanks but no thanks!

He is the way · Nov 20, 2020

mmksparbud said:
Just not enough time yet. Your speculation that they couldn't makes God a weak, ineffectual God whos commands do not need to be obeyed. Seriously? When God speaks even the elements obey. Your God commands and nobody has to listen, ours is a real God and when He says something will be done it will be. God does not force His creation to have sex! Adam and Eve were not animals---she didn't even have a name until after the fall! Most people need a little time to get to know each other before jumping in the sack. But then, you are speaking as men and wouldn't understand about that as all that LDS men seem to be interested is in sex and having many wives to do it with. Seems that Adam had better manners than most LDS men can comprehend. God doesn't intend to reduce the sex act to one of see and conquer, it is meant as an expression of love and that, does take a little time.

None of which has anything to do with NDE---I've had 2---nothing but blackness.

God is not weak, He is strong enough to make man equal to Himself:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I find no reason to believe that the fall was not necessary. It is part of our past history that God orchestrated so we could be like Him and His Son Jesus Christ. Even Joseph Smith did not realize this until it was revealed to him. I am grateful for the prophets who have expounded these truths so we can become more like our Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

mmksparbud · Nov 20, 2020

He is the way said:
God is not weak, He is strong enough to make man equal to Himself:

(New Testament | Philippians 2:5 - 6)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(New Testament | Philippians 3:14 - 15)

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

I find no reason to believe that the fall was not necessary. It is part of our past history that God orchestrated so we could be like Him and His Son Jesus Christ. Even Joseph Smith did not realize this until it was revealed to him. I am grateful for the prophets who have expounded these truths so we can become more like our Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

There will be no God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He has said it, and there will be none.

Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

He is the way · Nov 20, 2020

mmksparbud said:
There will be no God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. He has said it, and there will be none.

Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 43:11)

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Keyword is Saviour. There is only one Saviuor and Redeemer and that is Jesus Christ.

Ran77 · Nov 20, 2020

Dale said:
Does it occur to you that we could say the same about Joseph Smith?

Be my guest.

But what purpose would that serve? You quoted John Gill, a man giving his opinion on the Bible, as if his words had any importance to me. I did not quote Joseph Smith, or any other of our leaders, in order to support my arguments. I mainly rely on the Bible for my support. I only use quotes from our leaders if someone is asking me directly to do so or the topic is about what one of the said. I don't need to borrow from someone else, I am capable of forming my own statements.

Ran77 · Nov 20, 2020

Dale said:
Mormons deny that God is Spirit, they insist that God has a physical body.

I don't deal in "Mormons deny/believe/think/say . . ." Mostly because the claims that are made this way are incorrect and, like in this case, vague.

1. God is Spirit
AND
2. God has a physical body.

Where would you like to take the discussion from here?

Ran77 · Nov 20, 2020

Peter1000 said:
The bible says that A&E had no children before the fall. Any speculation as to why is worth nothing. IOW show me the scripture that tells us what you believe, that given enough time in the garden, A&E would have figured out how to have children. All we know is that before A&E were given their bodies, Jesus was already annointed to save them from the fall.

If there was no need for the fall, why annoint Jesus our Savior before the earth was even created?

Again, we thank God for the fall, not satan. Satan has no glory, and no praise from us. Just a misguided notion that the Church of Jesus Christ would have any thankfulness for anything satan did. Simply obsurd, and you know it. Just because satan had a roll in the fall, does not mean that we are thankful to him for anything. It was God that created satans roll, take it up with Him.

Excellent point.

dzheremi · Nov 20, 2020

Ran77 said:
Excellent point.

How is that an excellent point?

Dale · Nov 21, 2020

Ran77 said:
Luke 24: 39

Behold my hands and feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.

(The Bible teaches that too.)

Luke 24: 42-43

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

(The Bible teaches that too.)

There is evidence of this in the Bible, but it does not make as clear a statement as the previous two examples.

As do the same stars and planets that are part of mainstream Christianity.

I doubt I'm any more concerned about it than you are. You live in the same universe as me. Anything that provides a solution to this supposed concern from mainstream Christianity would be equally true for us.

What's going to happen to you when this universe expires? How will that effect God? I'm curious about your thoughts on this matter.

He is the way said:
God is LOVE:

(New Testament | 1 John 4:8)

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:34)

34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Yes God the Father does have a spiritual body of flesh and bones, and so will we:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:42 - 46)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

(New Testament | John 5:21 - 32)

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 ¶ There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

Peter1000 said:
Could Kolob be in the 3rd heaven? You don't know and until I see it, I have to believe by faith.

If God and the angels don't need a star or planet, are they just drifiting in open space somewhere. Be reasonable. It would be far more reasonable that they are situated on a rather large planet, rather than just drifting out there in space, right?

Where will the New Jerusalem be, if not on a planet? Will we all be in the New Jerusalem, just drifting in open space somewhere? Think about it just for a few seconds and you will see your dilemma, and JS's concept may not seem so far fetched.

Since we are still having a problem accepting that God is spirit, consider this.

" ... you would have been confuted in this matter by the Gospel of John, when it declares that the
Spirit descended in the body of a dove, and sat upon the Lord. Matthew 3:16. When the said
Spirit was in this condition, He was as truly a dove as He was also a spirit; nor did He destroy
His own proper substance by the assumption of an extraneous substance. But you ask what
becomes of the dove's body, after the return of the Spirit back to heaven, and similarly in the
case of the angels. Their withdrawal was effected in the same manner as their appearance
had been. If you had seen how their production out of nothing had been effected, you would
have known also the process of their return to nothing."

This is from Tertullian, On the Flesh of Christ, Chapter 3. Tertullian is one of the Early Church Fathers, as you may know. He poses the question of where the dove came from at the baptism of Jesus. Is the Holy Spirit always a dove? No. Tertullian says that the body of the dove was read but it was created for the event and returned to nothingness after the event. Tertullian expresses the sense of Scripture and the understanding of Christians of his time.

Tertullian proceeds from the understanding that God can create matter, an uncreate it, as needed.

Dale · Nov 21, 2020

mac777 said:
Are you a Christian? Why are you making Scientists out to be Gods? The Scientists are the very men that deny the existance of God, reject our Saviours gospel, promote all manner of theories as infallible truths and uninspired men take up their theories to challenge the bible and its gospel truths.
If you want to seek to dispute joseph smiths ideas concerning were God resides then if you are a religious man show us from the bible, not from godless men why you feel Joseph smith is right or wrong....

Mac: "Are you a Christian?"

This is not the way to talk to someone on Christian Forums. My past posts demonstrate that I am a Christian. In everyday life, when someone demands to know if I am Christian, I don't always answer. They usually don't believe the answer anyway.

Mac: "If you want to seek to dispute joseph smiths ideas concerning were God resides then if you are a religious man show us from the bible ... "

I have done so on many occasions on CF. You are free to do the same.

Dale · Nov 21, 2020

Peter1000 said:
OK, one more lesson on BOM and science. In 1830 people of science and non science laughed their heads off that JS said he had translated the BOM from gold plates, which they said was the stupidest thing they had ever heard. People did not write on gold plates, especially ignorant Indians from the Americas. How stupid does JS think we are?

Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?

Oh, Christians have no knowledge of Kolob. We are trying to bring you up to speed, but you are hard to convince. Where do you think heaven is anyway? When Jesus said to Mary he was going to his God and his Father, where do you Christians think Jesus went, anyway? I would like to know?

That is where you are mistaken. We are not asking you to make us equal with Christianity, we only ask that you acknowledge that we are Christians. You know as the scriptures say that the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Notice the scriptures do not say that the ___________ (add you church name) were called Christians first in Antioch. We are disciples of Jesus Chirst.

Peter1000 said:
There are many sources that talk about writings on gold plates, both LDS and non-LDS. It is not just a church thing anymore.

Here is one site on Youtube that describes a discovery of gold plates that look similar to those that JS had. I believe this would be considered non-LDS.

Peter: "Well some years later, what do you know, a scientist/archeologist finds gold plates in Central America and to his utter surprise there was writing on them. And many more have been found since that first discovery. Huh, was JS was right in 1830? Was science wrong in 1830?"

I have taken a look at this. Before we go any further, I have a question. I have seen that someone claims that the Ark of the Covenant was found in Panama. The video you link to is about a site in Panama.

Is the claim that the Ark of the Covenant has been found in Panama a separate claim? Or do these claims overlap? Are they from the same people?

The claim that the Ark of the Covenant has been found in Panama wasn't reported in the news media or even the religious news media because they don't believe it.

LDS Joseph Smith and the Astronomers

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