Joseph and Mary's relationship...

[visionary]

I don't see Yeshua with an impoverished soul.. His soul was not impoverished, but rather nourished from Heaven above continually without ceasing, just as ours should be in Him.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't see Yeshua with an impoverished soul.. His soul was not impoverished, but rather nourished from Heaven above continually without ceasing, just as ours should be in Him.

Saying that Yeshua wasn't impoverished doesn't address where scripture already notes he was poured out on our behalf, becoming SIN/taking our place and suffering. There are many scriptures (some of which have already been mentioned) on the Messiah when He was forsaken by the Father on the Cross...taking our place. And it goes against what Isaiah 53 says plainly on the Suffering servant's plight. If the Word is going to be the standard, then it needs to be the standard---and saying He had a relationship from Heaven nourished continually rather than addressing the subject of his suffering/death and identication goes directly counter to what Messianic Judaism has often noted about the great price the Messiah paid for us to be united with him.

2 Corinthians 5:20-21

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

​

Something else to consider...

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2



​

Andrew Murray said it best when he stated "Some men die without tasting the bitterness of death; Jesus tasted its bitterness, as the curse of sin, in full measure.".. For more in-depth info, one can look up his book entitled The Holiest of All (Tarrytown, NY: Fleming H. Revell Co.,)..and look on pp. 80-81. Also, as John Gill said on the issue when it comes to Hebrews 2:9---with the language being exceptionally strong in [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Verse 9[/FONT]:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]]that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man;[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]that is, Christ was made a little lower than the angels by becoming man, and assuming a body frail and mortal, that he might die for his church and people: to "taste death", is a Jewish phrase, often to be met with in Rabbinical writings; (See Gill on Matthew 16:28) and signifies the truth and reality of his death, and the experience he had of the bitterness of it, it being attended with the wrath of God, and curse of the law; though he continued under it but for a little while, it was but a taste; and it includes all kinds of death, he tasted of the death of afflictions, being a man of sorrows all his days, and a corporeal death, and what was equivalent to an eternal one; and so some think the words will bear to be rendered, "that he by the grace of God might taste of every death"; which rendering of the words, if it could be established, as it is agreeable to the context, and to the analogy of faith, would remove all pretence of an argument from this place, in favour of the universal scheme: what moved God to make him lower than the angels, and deliver him up to death, was not any anger towards him, any disregard to him, or because he deserved it, but his "grace", free favour, and love to men; this moved him to provide him as a ransom; to preordain him to be the Lamb slain; to send him in the fulness of time, and give him up to justice and death: the Syriac version reads, "for God himself through his own grace tasted death for all"; Christ died, not merely as an example, or barely for the good of men, but as a surety, in their room and stead, and that not for every individual of mankind; for there are some he knows not; for some he does not pray; and there are some who will not be saved: the word "man" is not in the original text, it is only () , which may be taken either collectively, and be rendered "for the whole"; that is, the whole body, the church for whom Christ gave himself, and is the Saviour of; or distributively, and be translated, "for everyone"; for everyone of the sons God brings to glory, (Hebrews 2:10) for everyone of the "brethren", whom Christ sanctifies, and he is not ashamed to own, and to whom he declares the name of God, (Hebrews 2:11,12) for everyone of the members of the "church", in the midst of which he sung praise, (Hebrews 2:12) for every one of the "children" God has given him, and for whose sake he took part of flesh and blood, (Hebrews 2:13,14) and for everyone of the "seed" of Abraham, in a spiritual sense, whose nature he assumed, (Hebrews 2:16) . [/FONT][/FONT]
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Additionally, as seen in [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Chapter 2 of [/FONT]Commentary Critical and Explanatory [FONT=Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]on the Whole Bible---by Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown (who in NO uncertain terms, share their views):[/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]His exaltation after sufferings is the perfecting or consummation of His work (Hebrews 2:10) for us: without it His death would have been ineffectual; with it, and from it, flows the result that His tasting of death is available for (in behalf of, for the good of) every man. He is crowned as the Head in heaven of our common humanity, presenting His blood as the all-prevailing plea for us. This coronation above makes His death applicable for every individual man (observe the singular; not merely "for all men"), Hebrews 4:14, 9:24, 1 John 2:2. "Taste death" implies His personal experimental undergoing of death: death of the body, and death (spiritually) of the soul, in His being forsaken of the Father. "As a physician first tastes his medicines to encourage his sick patient to take them, so Christ, when all men feared death, in order to persuade them to be bold in meeting it, tasted it Himself. though He had no need" [CHRYSOSTOM]. (Hebrews 2:14,15).[/FONT]
​

There are many others besides this----as the entire concept of Spiritual Death and becoming spiritually poor. Jesus' torment, despite his anticipations of it in Gethsemane, was surely inconceivable in advance...Matthew 24:36 . There is no escaping the reality of how Jesus's crying out to God in immense pain of Divine Abandonment ( Isaiah 59:1-3 / Isaiah 59 ) which he suffers as a substitute for sinful mankind.

 

[visionary]

Saying that Yeshua wasn't impoverished doesn't address where scripture already notes he was poured out on our behalf, becoming SIN/taking our place and suffering. There are many scriptures (some of which have already been mentioned) on the Messiah when He was forsaken by the Father on the Cross...taking our place. And it goes against what Isaiah 53 says plainly on the Suffering servant's plight. If the Word is going to be the standard, then it needs to be the standard---and saying He had a relationship from Heaven nourished continually rather than addressing the subject of his suffering/death and identication goes directly counter to what Messianic Judaism has often noted about the great price the Messiah paid for us to be united with him.

2 Corinthians 5:20-21

21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[a] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


​

Yes, I agree.. but that is as an adult not a child with his parents... And that is where this conversation started, was the state of his life as a child and in ministry up to the moment of His taking on sin for us. At the moment that sin was taken up by Yeshua, then and only then was He impoverished enough to call on God rather than the more endearing term of Father.. because of the separation from His Father .. a great price indeed.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't see Yeshua with an impoverished soul.. His soul was not impoverished, but rather nourished from Heaven above continually without ceasing, just as ours should be in Him.

I think Myles Monroe said it best when he spoke directly on the issue, in regards to understanding what sin was/the reality of it, as seen in his book "The Purpose and Power of Praise/Worship"

The inability of our holy God to tolerate sin in His presence is what caused Jesus to cry out while on the cross, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? ...
​

Additionally:

1 Peter 3:19
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


​

AS seen best in verse commentary at "Precept Austin---I Peter 3:18-22" ( ) ,

The phrase made alive in the spirit refers to the life of Jesus' spirit--not to the Holy Spirit. There's no article in the Greek text indicates that Peter was referring to the Holy Spirit.

Rather, he seems to be contrasting what happened to the flesh (or body) of Jesus with what happened to His spirit. His spirit was alive but His flesh was dead.

Some think made alive in the spirit refers to Christ's resurrection, but that would necessitate a statement like, He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the flesh. The resurrection was a spiritual and physical occurrence. Thus Peter's point has to be that though Christ was physically dead, His spirit was still alive.

Though in spirit Christ was alive, He did experience spiritual death--not cessation of existence but separation from God. On the cross He said

My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Mt 27:46)
​

That shows the separation He temporarily experienced from the Father when He was made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21). Similarly, unbelievers experience spiritual death (separation from God) in this life and eternal death in the next, but they never cease to exist.

The separation between Christ and the Father was over quickly, for shortly after our Lord's lament He said,

Father, into Thy hands I commit My spirit (Luke 23:46)
​

That shows His spirit was alive again--no longer separated from God--and could be committed to the Father. )
​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, I agree.. but that is as an adult not a child with his parents... And that is where this conversation started, was the state of his life as a child and in ministry up to the moment of His taking on sin for us. .

His being a child would make no difference---as the one who was ETERNAL and GOD Himself (if believing that) is still significant since the Lord took on human limitations...choosing to identify with the fragile nature of man, as Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 4 note. It was still an impoverishment when compared to the glory He came from and Set aside.

Again, Philippians 2 makes it clear that it wasn't just in His death that he experienced poorness...but in His very arrival from day one. Luke 2 discusses the issue of how he had to go through the process of growing/learning in the GRACE Of God---even though he had access to so much more. It's why it was significant what he did since he didn't have to ....and growing up in humble circumstances was no joke. That is again the process of walking out the process of being lowly.

At the moment that sin was taken up by Yeshua, then and only then was He impoverished enough to call on God rather than the more endearing term of Father.. because of the separation from His Father .. a great price indeed

His taking on sin is not the only aspect of spiritual impoverishment---as He already had to deal with human struggles and STILL needed to call on God.

Additionally, as He already called the Father "God" ON MULTIPLE occassions throughout His ministry, to make it out as if his calling God instead of Father on the cross as significant doesn't deal with the text.

 

[visionary]

Jesus emptied Himself, and in all that He did ...self did not appear. He subordinated all things to the will of His Father. When His mission on earth was about to close, He could say, “I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.” And He bids us, “Learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart.” “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself”; let self be dethroned, and no longer hold the supremacy of the soul.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua emptied himself of those things which we take for granted, self, pride, love of supremacy, and even money. Self is yielded to the disposal of the Holy Spirit. He was not anxious to have the highest place. He had no ambition to crowd and elbow Himself into being noticed. The apostle Paul had this experience, and he said, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.”

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Jesus emptied Himself, and in all that He did self did not appear..

Not according to scripture, V--and in saying otherwise, it's taking up what one wishes to see in the Messiah rather than what He already SAID. For the Lord had already chosen to empty of Himself in His very COMING to the EArth as Paul noted in Philippians 2 with his taking on the nature of a servant. To serve requires one remove themselves of SELF and be SELFLESS---and that's what the Messiah came to do. This is the testimony of what the early church said repeatedly and what the Jewish believers noted frequently in the 1st century church when it came to making clear how they were to be emptied of SELF just as the Messiah did so throughout the ENTIRETY of his live in serving others.

Matthew 20:27-29 Matthew 20

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Mark 10:44-46
41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”



​

As Yeshua said of His own self when admonishing his disciples to serve one another/be selfless:

Luke 22:20
24 A dispute also arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. 25 Jesus said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. 26 But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. 27 For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.
​

He subordinated all things to the will of His Father. When His mission on earth was about to close, He could say, “I have glorified Thee on the earth: I have finished the work which Thou gavest Me to do.” And He bids us, “Learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart.” “If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself”; let self be dethroned, and no longer hold the supremacy of the soul

What Yeshua was saying in John 17 was in regards to his being faithful to all the Lord had done prior to His death. But from his teen years to when he was an adult doing ministry and to the time He was getting ready to die, Yeshua was a SERVANT...with one part of his life being in completion/finished.

He obeyed his parents and honored them..and this is what Jewish believers have said since the early church. In practical example of where Yeshua was already selfless, ehen He began His ministry, Christ attended a wedding party with His mother, brothers and disciples. One has to wonder who was getting married that they should be there. ...and what's interesting is that Mary apparently had enough authority to tell the servants what to do so she was surely an honored guest. That's hardly the profile of a humble pauper. At old age, she seemed to be quite spirited in the way she handled things.......as seen in how she spoke to Christ and how he protested but still honored her request.

[

B]John 2:1-10[/b]
1 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Now both Jesus and His disciples were invited to the wedding. 3 And when they ran out of wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, “They have no wine.”
4 Jesus said to her, “Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come.”
5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

6 Now there were set there six waterpots of stone, according to the manner of purification of the Jews, containing twenty or thirty gallons apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the waterpots with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 And He said to them, “Draw some out now, and take it to the master of the feast.” And they took it. 9 When the master of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and did not know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. 10 And he said to him, “Every man at the beginning sets out the good wine, and when the guests have well drunk, then the inferior. You have kept the good wine until now!”
​

Even though He didn't have to, Yeshua still chose to obey and honor his mother's request...


Seeing the ways that Yeshua chose to serve/obey his parents is interesting. If remembering where the text of Luke 2 says that Yeshua obeyed his parents when they were looking for Him, I've heard it said that it was all reflective of the Messiah not sinning He obeyed what was told of Him (as the Father approved)--as it was about Christ having to grow/learn as with all of us. I think one cannot read the Scriptures and see otherwise clearly---unless, of course, there's an issue with changing one's paradigm on how they see the Lord. Christ had to grow/learn OBEDIANCE...and in prime example, considering what occured in the temple with Jesus being absent for a good bit, many others have often said that it was a mistake Christ made for Him to leave His parents without the honor of letting them know where He was....even if it was more than logical for Him to be in the House of the Lord.

There was a Christian comedian I once heard on the issue say that the reality may've been that even with Christ saying what He did to his parents, it's cool to see He obeyed.....because the reality is that what would've happened had he chose to stay in the temple with a comment that essentially said "You're not my real daddy!!!!"? Would Mary have given Christ a spanking?

Would've been a trip had it happened--as I can only imagine Mary saying "Son of God or not, I'm still yo momma...and I will break out on you if you push it", with her getting a switch/belt and ready for war (as I remember fondly with my family members growing up when we had to go chose our belt and got our behind hit. But on the issue, it's highly intriguing to see the reality of what occured in the temple regarding the humanity of Christ..... as it was mistake for Christ to be in the temple----and as seen later, he defered to his parents and he chose to honor his father/mother in accordance with Jewish Law, Exodus 20:11-13/ Exodus 20 /Deuteronomy 5:15-17 / Deuteronomy 5 /Matthew 15:3-5 / Matthew 15 /Ephesians 6:1-3 / Ephesians 6 . That all goes back to the issue of how growing in wisdom involves learning responsibility by parental rules/ enforcement until those rules -- and eventually those values -- become internalized within one's children...and it was very much that kind of reality for Christ, Hebrews 5:7-9 / Hebrews 5


Did Christ ever make a mistake? Did he ever have times where he needed to be corrected? What role did His parents play in raising their child in righteousness and the ways of the Lord since it was primarily upon the parents of Jewish familes to ensure---as the Word says, Deuteronomy 11:18-20 /Deuteronomy 11 Deuteronomy 4---that God's ways were remembered by them....and Mary/Joseph would've been no different in this regard

And on the issue of Christ having to grow/learn via trial & error, as said best elsewhere:

Luke 2:51-52



52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.


Infused with the Grace of God (2:39-40)

"When Joseph and Mary had done everything required by the Law of the Lord, they returned to Galilee to their own town of Nazareth. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him." (2:40)
​

Luke doesn't mention -- or perhaps isn't aware of -- the Holy Family's trip from Bethlehem to Egypt to escape the wrath of Herod the Great against Jesus (Matthew 2:13-23). Rather, Luke focuses on Jesus' gradual growth to maturity in Nazareth.

Two verbs describe this growth. "Grew," the Greek verb auxano, "to become greater, grow, increase." "Become strong" (NIV) or "wax strong" (KJV) is the Greek verb krataioo, "become strong." It can refer to physical strength, as it probably does here, as well as psychological and spiritual strength.

Jesus grew, but did he learn? He didn't start out from infancy with all knowledge -- he had "emptied himself" of omniscience when he became a man (Philippians 2:7). We humans learn as toddlers by observing, trial and error. We learn language by imitation and correction. We learn responsibility by parental rules and enforcement until those rules -- and eventually those values -- become internalized. Did Jesus learn this way, too? I expect so.

Believing that Jesus learned like any other human child doesn't conflict with our belief in his sinlessness (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 7:26; 1 John 3:5).

Though Jesus had to learn like the rest of us, he was specially gifted by God. This verse tells us that he was "filled with wisdom" and that "the grace of God was upon him" -- that is, God blessed him in what he was doing. Here, the common Greek noun charis, "grace" seems to mean "a beneficent disposition toward someone, favor, grace, gracious care/help, goodwill."
​

Yeshua emptied himself of those things which we take for granted, self, pride, love of supremacy, and even money. Self is yielded to the disposal of the Holy Spirit. He was not anxious to have the highest place. He had no ambition to crowd and elbow Himself into being noticed. The apostle Paul had this experience, and he said, “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.”

Pride isn't something that should be listed as a thing that's taken for granted since that (alongside self) are things the Lord already said He DIDN't like on a myraid of occassions. ...although if you were not trying to say here that pride/self and love of supremacy were things that should be valued, my bad for misreading you. Generally, saying something's "taken for granted" implies that it is to be valued. ...and in the event you do feel that those aforementioned things are to be valued, I think it'd be beneficial to show scripture on such and address where pride/self and love of supremacy were things the Lord ever loved.

He emptied himself, according to scripture, of trying to have his OWN way....and the Lord exalted him.

 

[visionary]

Not according to scripture, V--and in saying otherwise, it's taking up what one wishes to see in the Messiah rather than what He already SAID.

Are you telling me that you believe that "self" motivated any of Yeshua's words, deeds, or thoughts?
I think you are not reading what I am saying because you are saying the same thing I am about Him emptying Himself of anything to do with "self".."Being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil. 2:8.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Are you telling me that you believe that "self" motivated any of Yeshua's words, deeds, or thoughts?

I think you are not reading what I am saying because you are saying the same thing I am about Him emptying Himself of anything to do with "self".."Being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." Phil. 2:8
.

Being selfless is the opposite of self. Doesn't mean that one isn't aware of themselves, but rather that their focus is more so on service to others rather than their own selves--actively choosing to serve others rather than self. It's what the early church discussed....and Yeshua's main concern was His doing what would glorify the Father since His youth. It was a humbling thing---as said earlier in regards to poverty of soul/poor in spirit--since He, as God, didn't have to do ANYTHING and could have easily made it clear that man should have been serving Him...but He chose not to. It seems you may be misreading what was said earlier whenever the term poor is used in regards to "self" --and in His being selfless not only in His death/crucifixtion...but in the very process of his growing up in wisdom/honoring his own parents as well as learning how to serve others.

Hebrews 5:5

1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness. 3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people. 4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.

5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.”[a]
6 And he says in another place,
“You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.”[b]

7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

When Hebrews 2:17-18 and 4:15 talks about His participating in our weaknesses, temptations, and sufferings, can it mean that He found out what it's like to be the kid that everybody calls "the little bastard"?

Understanding the battles Yeshua may've had with illegitimacy can make more sense in light of what the Word notes with Yeshua growing up/being approved by the Father:

I

Luke 2:37

The Boy Jesus at the Temple

41Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover. 42When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom. 43After the Feast was over, while his parents were returning home, the boy Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem, but they were unaware of it. 44Thinking he was in their company, they traveled on for a day. Then they began looking for him among their relatives and friends. 45When they did not find him, they went back to Jerusalem to look for him. 46After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. 47Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers. 48When his parents saw him, they were astonished.

His mother said to him, "Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you."


49"Why were you searching for me?" he asked. "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" 50But they did not understand what he was saying to them.




51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.






​

According to the text, Jesus demonstrated wisdom beyond his years---which is not suprising since He stayed close to his Heavenly father. And on the cultural background, according to God's Law, every male was required to go to Jerusalem three times a year for the great festivals (Deuteronomy 16:15-17 Deuteronomy 16 ). In the spring, the Passover was celebrated, immediately by the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread. And at the time of the Passover, the greatest rabbis of the land would assemble to teach/discuss great truths among themselves. The coming of the Messiah would have been a popular discussion topic--as everyone was expecting him soon. And Jesus would have been eager to listen/ask probing questions (as He did).



In line with Mary's question of "Why have you done this to us", Jesus made clear the question was misplaced. AWhen Jesus was 12 years old, it was at the age at which a Jewish boy undergoes his bar-mitzvah ceremony and becomes a "son of the commandment", personally responsible for keeping the Torah given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. At this time, for the first time, he was given an aliyah (call-up) to come to the bimah (lectern) and read from the sefer-Torah (i.e. Torah scroll) in a synagouge service.


At the age of 12, Jesus was considered almost an adult, and so he didn't spend a lot of time with his parents during the festival. Those who attended these festivals often traveled in caravans for protection from robbers from the Palestine roads. It was customary for women and children to travel at the front of the caravan, with the men bringing up the rear. A 12 year boy could have been in either group..and both Mary/Joseph assumed Jesus was in either one.


But Jesus stayed behind, absorbed in his discussion with the religious leaders. And with that in mind, as upset as Mary was and while Joseph may have been searching for days for the child, they should have known where to look (according to Jesus's response)----especially in light of what had already been revealed to them about their son in Matthew 1-2 and Luke 1-2.

Mary was fearful she had not been careful with this God-Given child--yet she could not see the man who was in the temple living out part of what he was meant to do...nor had she learned to let go. His parents didn't understand what He meant about "father's business"--as they didn't realize he was making a distinction between his earthly father and his heavenlly Father----and they knew he was unique but they did not know fully all He was called to do.....since they had to raise him along with his brothers/sisters as a normal child ( Matthew 13:54-56 Matthew 13/ ).


Also, what happened there in Luke 2 was a matter of Jesus realizing for the first time that He was God's Son...yet even though He knew he was God's Son, He did not reject his earthly parents/who they were and what they were placed there to teach him. For He went back to Nazareth with them, lived under their authority for another 18yrs and took up the trade of his father (i.e. a carpenter), which was another function of being about the Business of His Father/always doing what His Father wanted him to do at the time.




And later, in Matthew 4 and Luke 4, the Lord YEshua was again affirmed PUBLICALLY that he was indeed the son of His Father, who was well pleased with him. Seeing how many may've assumed that Jesus was an illegitimate child and Joseph was not the real father (which was hinted at in John 8:40-42 when the Jewish people noted of themselves that they were not illegitimate children), having to be confirmed was a big deal. Although the Lord was qualified to be considered an heir to the Davidic line, he still was not known to be one who was born of a virgin....and thus, the stigma of being considered as being born out of wedlock would not have gone away easily.






One man of God, known as Joseph Garlington, said it best here:

Maximise Life Conference - New Wine Church - Bishop Joseph Garlington - Part 4

​

From what I was able to see, the Lord would be in need of having a rite of passage himself. Messianic Jew Asher Intrater from "Revive Israel" ministries and Israel Mandate...actually had one of the greatest speeches on the subject I've ever heard of entitled You Are My Beloved Son

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It's mind boggling is what it is. Tho the bible is completely silent about Jesus growing up as a child, imagine if you can how difficult that must have been as well!

Real talk