Joining the LCMS Lutherian Church

[Hunterkirk]

I am planning on joining the LCMS. I have been a Baptist for all my life and have only with in the last 4 years found a Church Home in which I felt at home with both the religious beliefs of and the world view of the people in the congregation.

I put off joining for a long while as I had certain disputes on doctrine, specifically infant baptism. I have come to accept the practice of infant baptism although I still greatly favor believers baptism. And this gets to the point of my post..

Is it acceptable for me to become a member of a Church if I find myself still some what at odds with parts of its doctrine? My minister has examined me and my belief and has discussed these issues with me. He assures me that I am welcome to join even with these differances.

I have already commited to this action and it is a big step for me as I have avoided such effort with Presbyterian church. I still feel I am more simply Christian then Baptist or Lutherian but I can find little I disagree with in the Lutherian doctrine...

Anyhow thoughts?

 

[porterross]

Welcome. I love your name, now that I know what "kirk" means in Scotland and as Hunter is my family name.

Scottish are you?

 

[DaRev]

I am planning on joining the LCMS. I have been a Baptist for all my life and have only with in the last 4 years found a Church Home in which I felt at home with both the religious beliefs of and the world view of the people in the congregation.

I put off joining for a long while as I had certain disputes on doctrine, specifically infant baptism. I have come to accept the practice of infant baptism although I still greatly favor believers baptism. And this gets to the point of my post..

Is it acceptable for me to become a member of a Church if I find myself still some what at odds with parts of its doctrine? My minister has examined me and my belief and has discussed these issues with me. He assures me that I am welcome to join even with these differances.

I have already commited to this action and it is a big step for me as I have avoided such effort with Presbyterian church. I still feel I am more simply Christian then Baptist or Lutherian but I can find little I disagree with in the Lutherian doctrine...

Anyhow thoughts?

Well, I would have a certain amount of issue with your belief in "believers" baptism because it goes against the basic principal of the Lutheran teaching of salvation by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. Baptism is not a choice we make but is wholly the work of God. To say the we have to cooperate with God's work for our salvation is a false teaching.

I would encourage you to continue to discuss this with your pastor. Welcome to the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.

 

[Hunterkirk]

Welcome. I love your name, now that I know what "kirk" means in Scotland and as Hunter is my family name.

Scottish are you?

Yes Kirk means Church... hence the many Kirklands out there. As for the hunter bit that is more a discription of my seeking of information and wisdom then either a family name or a sport of interest. But I have always like Hunter as a family name.

I am in truth of German descent although few of my family is to be found in Germany these days, they left around WW1 and now are either in the UK or the USA. But I also have deep love for the Scottish peoples and have some GUNN family blood in me.

 

[Jim47]

I guess I can't truely speak for how the LCMS would handle this but I know in the WELS you would be asked to go through instruction again. You obviously haven't had enough instruction yet or you would understand why we believe in infant baptism.

 

[Hunterkirk]

Mybe I should make clearer my position on Infant Baptism.

I recognize that it is God that moves you to salvation and no action of your own. Yet I also recognize that God can move a person whom isnt a child in to salvation and hence 'believers baptism'. I understand and accept the idea behind infant baptism, which as I understand it is the holy spirit moving the child through the baptism which is confirmed later when they 'come to a saving faith'. But I see the coming to the saving faith as something equal to coming to salvation and baptism later in life.

Clearly the holy spirit can move people to salvation with out baptism and that is what I believe happens with 'believers' baptism. It becomes a Chicken and Egg arguement to me..

Does the believer choose baptism because he has choosen God or does the believer come to choose baptism because God has moved him to this choice?

In the end I dont think it much matters as long as the person comes to salvation, and clearly the holy spirit is involved in such a action. Be it a confrimed faith or a 'believers' faith I dont, currently, see much a differance as God and the Holy Spirit is involved in both.

 

[DaRev]

I recognize that it is God that moves you to salvation and no action of your own. Yet I also recognize that God can move a person whom isnt a child in to salvation and hence 'believers baptism'. I understand and accept the idea behind infant baptism, which as I understand it is the holy spirit moving the child through the baptism which is confirmed later when they 'come to a saving faith'. But I see the coming to the saving faith as something equal to coming to salvation and baptism later in life.

But baptism saves. It's not that a child is baptized but receives "saving faith" later. That's the basis of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Sacrament of Confirmation, which Luther vehemently rejected as contrary to Scripture. The faith that brings that child to the font is the same faith that saves him.

 

[Hunterkirk]

But baptism saves. It's not that a child is baptized but receives "saving faith" later. That's the basis of the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Sacrament of Confirmation, which Luther vehemently rejected as contrary to Scripture. The faith that brings that child to the font is the same faith that saves him.

True, but the confrimation does take place at some point after baptism, after all do you give communion to infants?

 

[DaRev]

True, but the confrimation does take place at some point after baptism, after all do you give communion to infants?

But confirmation is simply a public statement of faith. It is not a means of grace.

The Lord's Supper is a different matter entirely. It requires a certain level of understanding in order to be received worthily for the benefit of the recipient, in addition to knowing the Confession of the Church in order to make that public proclamation of fellowship at the altar when one receives the Lord's Supper.

Baptism requires no level of understanding. It is the work of God.

 

[Hunterkirk]

But confirmation is simply a public statement of faith. It is not a means of grace.

The Lord's Supper is a different matter entirely. It requires a certain level of understanding in order to be received worthily for the benefit of the recipient, in addition to knowing the Confession of the Church in order to make that public proclamation of fellowship at the altar when one receives the Lord's Supper.

Baptism requires no level of understanding. It is the work of God.

So you can be saved and never have participated in a Lord's Supper? If so how does the Holy Spirit work throu the Lord's Supper if one is already save?

 

[DaRev]

So you can be saved and never have participated in a Lord's Supper? If so how does the Holy Spirit work throu the Lord's Supper if one is already save?

We are all sinners in need of God's grace and forgiveness. We are always in danger of losing our salvation. When we receive the Lord's Supper we are receiving the forgiveness that Christ promised us by eating and drinking His body and blood. Because we sin often, we need forgiveness often. The Lord's Supper is not a requirement for slavation.

 

[Hunterkirk]

We are all sinners in need of God's grace and forgiveness. We are always in danger of losing our salvation. When we receive the Lord's Supper we are receiving the forgiveness that Christ promised us by eating and drinking His body and blood. Because we sin often, we need forgiveness often. The Lord's Supper is not a requirement for slavation.

So One can Reject the Salvation Gained in Baptism?

 

[DaRev]

So One can Reject the Salvation Gained in Baptism?

Yes. Lutherans do not believe in irresistible grace as do the Reformed.

 

[Hunterkirk]

Yes. Lutherans do not believe in irresistible grace as do the Reformed.

If you can reject God then why can you not embrace God?

 

[DaSeminarian]

If you can reject God then why can you not embrace God?

Because as sinners we do not seek God. We run from him.

Our human will is captive only to sin and so we lack the ability to choose God. Christ said, "You did not choose me, I chose you."

 

[Hunterkirk]

Because as sinners we do not seek God. We run from him.

Our human will is captive only to sin and so we lack the ability to choose God. Christ said, "You did not choose me, I chose you."

Since we are all sinners then is it possable to be imperfect member of a Church?

 

[DaRev]

Since we are all sinners then is it possable to be imperfect member of a Church?

There are no "perfect" members of any church. But there is a difference between being imperfect because of the sinful human nature and wilfully holding to a false teaching.

 

[porterross]

Since we are all sinners then is it possable to be imperfect member of a Church?

That sure describes me.

 

[Hunterkirk]

There are no "perfect" members of any church. But there is a difference between being imperfect because of the sinful human nature and wilfully holding to a false teaching.

True...

Yet can you honestly say every member of your church believe exactly the same things all the time and to the same degree?

If No is it not possable to allow people who are not fully grounded in all aspects and understandings of the doctrine to be members of the church (keep in mind I am simply saying members not leaders or teachers), with the hope that as time passes and they are exposed to the doctrine more they will come to a more full grounding in it?

 

[DaSeminarian]

So you can be saved and never have participated in a Lord's Supper? If so how does the Holy Spirit work throu the Lord's Supper if one is already save?

Baptism and the Sacrament known as the Lord's Supper are called "Means of grace" Perhaps you have heard this term in discussions with your pastor. We in the Lutheran Church believe that God gave us these means for a purpose. In Baptism it is the washing and renewal by the Holy Spirit. The water is consecrated with God's word and becomes efficacious to do his work.

The same is true for the Lord's Supper. (a.k.a, The Eucharist, Holy Communion, The sacrament of the Altar.) When God's word is attached to the bread and wine we believe that Christ's physical and spiritual presence is in, with and under the bread and wine. We receive Christ through his body and blood and all that goes with it. Forgiveness of sins won on the cross.

Holy Baptism is necessary, but not absolutely necessary. A child that dies before it can receive the waters of Holy Baptism is left to the efficacious grace of God. Those children that can be baptized should be baptized.

One can live in the faith knowing that they were Baptized, but Holy Communion is not a requirement of our faith. We desire it only because we want the forgiveness that comes with it.