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Johnson wants to negociate?

Discussion in 'General Politics' started by helmut, Aug 22, 2019.

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  1. helmut

    helmut Member

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    On his tour through Europe, Boris Johnson tries to give the impression he wants to negotiate a new agreement on the Brexit. But there are serious doubts he really wants that:
    • As to the main point stressed by Johnson, the "backstop", there is no need to negotiate a new agreement, just negotiate (as the agreement demands it) a solution to the question on the Irish border.
    • If there is a proposal for a solution of this problem, e.g. Northern Ireland to stay in the EU (and still being part of the UK, of course), Europe is ready to negotiate it. As Merkel has hinted, a solution might be found within 30 days.
    • But there seem to be no proposal by Johnson, so there is nothing one could negotiate about - until Johnson breaks his silence on this point.
    • As to a new agreement, the EU does not want to start the negotiations all over again. Even the discussion within the EU which points should Europe demand in exchange of concessions to the UK, might take time well into October. The only way that might convince the EU to start a new agreement talk is: Postpone the Brexit until the new agreement is negotiated and ratified. Is Johnson willing to propose that?
     
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  2. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    How about waiting until after Brexit to negotiate a new agreement?
     
  3. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Is this a joke? Negotiating how to deal with Brexit starts after Brexit? That's absurd.
     
  4. SoldierOfTheKing

    SoldierOfTheKing Christian Spenglerian

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    Why absurd? One of the fundamental principles of negotiating is that you will never get a good deal if you are not willing to, if necessary, just get up and walk out. Which means making sure that Brexit is happening, with or without a deal. If Johnson first focuses on getting Brexit done with, he'll find himself in a better position in a better position to negotiate a deal afterward. The WTO's default trade rules have this advantage: because they're not drawn up for any country in particular, they're symmetrical. The UK has assurance of not being taken for a ride. Once the UK can approach the EU as an equal, sovereign partner, rather than a vassal state, the chances of a trade deal that benefits the UK will be much better.
     
  5. tulc

    tulc loves "SO'S YER MOM!! posts!

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    Well...perhaps now would be as good a time as any to break up the UK? Let Scotland, Ireland and Wales (or whoever wants to) stay in the EU and let England be as alone as they seem to want to be. As Soldier said, sometimes you just have to be willing to walk away from a deal that's not working for you. :wave:
    tulc(just a thought) :)
     
  6. helmut

    helmut Member

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    The deal should prevent a hard Brexit. But a hard Brexit will occur when the negotiations are not finished when the Brexit occurs.

    I can't follow you. For decades, the UK has been given a special treatment, they had to pay less and received more money as other countries in the same condition. This was a result of blackmailing the EEC resp. EU: If you don't give us these privileges, we might leave. The first PM who did so was Ms. Thatcher.

    When the Brexit was no longer a means to blackmail the EU, but real, the EU and the UK negotiated as equals, and the result was, consequently, less comfortable to the UK than the situation before. This could be foreseen by anyone who was not blind, Boris Johnson knew it (but preferred to lie to the British people).
     
  7. helmut

    helmut Member

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    When Scotland voted about leaving the UK, the odds were high that the people would vote for an independent Scotland. But then the EU interfered and threatened: An independent Scotland would automatically be outside the EU. So the Scots voted to stay in the UK in order to stay in the EU.

    I therefore think that the EU has the moral obligation to demand at least that Scotland should stay in the EU if the Scots want that (since this a somewhat different question as the Brexit, this requires a second referendum).

    It is a concession made to Theresa May that this point is not included in the agreement.

    As to Wales: They voted for Brexit, I see no base for a second Welsh referendum without a second English referendum.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2019
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  8. LionL

    LionL Believer in God, doubter of religion

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    Because you say ridiculous things like this:
    The last time we were vassals of a foreign power was during the reign of Cnut, 1,000 years ago.
     
  9. helmut

    helmut Member

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    If you allow me to split hairs: This is not correct.

    The "we" of your statement were Anglo-Saxons, who later became vassals of the Normans, when William conquered England in 1066.

    The Normans were vassals of the King of West Francia, which eventually evolved into France. After conquering England, William was vassal only in respect to the Normandy, not as a king of England. The involvement of English Kings into France continued until the hundred year's war.
     
  10. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's a bit silly, really.

    The European Union aren't going to budge and Johnson is yet another person left with a hot potato and no new ideas.

    Brexit is going to happen either way but the uncertainty is more damaging than anything right now.

    Just rip the plaster off and start moving forward. There's no way other European countries aren't going to come to the table with the second largest economy in the region.

    They're threatened that others will follow suit, that's all it is. Merkel grew up in East Germany and she is scared of a Europe that isn't unified so it's no wonder she's pushing back.

    Just get it over with.
     
  11. LionL

    LionL Believer in God, doubter of religion

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    The Norman Kings of England were not a foriegn state - they may not have been anglo-saxons (they were in fact descended from Norsemen, hence their name) but they became English through immigration.
    In Normandy, yes - not in England.
    Indeed, the Angevin Empire covered a great deal of France, as well as England, Ireland and Wales. The parts in France may have been 'vassals' of France, but England itself was not.
    I stand by my claim - The last time we were vassals of a foreign power was during the reign of Cnut, 1,000 years ago.
     
  12. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Well, Cnut became King of England before he became King od Denmark, so one may claim his rule was not of a "foreign state". ;)

    The ruling class in Normandy was descendant from an army that had a Nordic core, but included also people from France and other countries. Judging by the language they used, the "Norsemen" were in the minority.

    I did say the same in other words, there is no disagreement on this point.

    So do I :)
     
  13. LionL

    LionL Believer in God, doubter of religion

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    As I'm sure you know, he left England less than two years after his coronation, returning to the heart of his empire, Denmark. He was also king of Norway and Sweden.


    My point is that they became English after the conquest - the Norman kings ruled from England, not from France.


    Smashing


    Respectfully sir, I think we will always disagree on this.
     
  14. Knee V

    Knee V It's phonetic.

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    I would think (although admittedly I am not very good at that) that that ultimatum was made in the particular context of the UK still being part of the EU. I would also think that countries like Scotland and Wales coming to the EU after Brexit as independent countries might be treated differently in that new context.

    Requiring Scotland to be part of the UK may very well have been a means to try to keep the UK in the EU. After this October, that strategy - if that was indeed the strategy - will no longer be a factor.
     
  15. helmut

    helmut Member

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    Besides the option of Scotland becoming independent, there is the possibility of Scotland being part of UK, but also part of EU, with England being outside EU. Compare with Greenland, part of Denmark, but no part of EU.

    Whether the Scots want it, is not clear. In the independence referendum, the options were Scotland in or outside the UK, both England and Scotland being within EU, and then the threat from the EU, that Scotland out of UK means also out of EU.

    If the main motive was to avoid a traffic barrier between England and Scotland, it is possible that Scotland wants to stay with England (economically at least) when the Brexit occurs. I suppose no-one can tell the outcome of a referendum whether Scotland should stay in the EU or stay with England.

    As to Wales, I see no basis which allows to demand a Welsh referendum (a second referendum for the whole UK is a different matter, but this is an internal question of the UK, EU should not interfere in that question).
     
  16. Tom Farebrother

    Tom Farebrother Optimistic sceptic Supporter

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    A large minority want to be, that is, less than 25% of people of voting age. A lot of people didn't vote at all, which suggests a larger group than aren't interested, one way or the other. Nb. the Welsh voters who turned out also voted for Brexit, again a large minority.
     
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