John's Revelation

AdB said:

Would be great if you could at least list where you think I'm in err, I'm not going to read 21000 posts.
I do need to figure out how Dan 8:11-14 and Dan 12:11-12 fit into my timeline...

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When I get a chance.

What I suggest you do is work up a narrative (it does not have to be long) of the career (for lack of a better word) that the arch villain of the end times, the roles he goes through from beginning to end.

AdB said:

I've always had a bit of the position that we can never clearly know what the Book of Revelation it is about until that time has arrived, kinda like the Ethiopian didn't have a clue what Isaiah was talking about, but when Philip explained about Jesus it all fell in place.
But a friend of me challenged me regarding post tribulation rapture so I just started putting different texts from Revelation and other books next to each other in an Excel sheet relative to each other and from that, to my surprise a quite clear timeline came forward. I took the approach of trying to "understand" what the revelations were talking about as they were revealed bit by bit. I've described this in a Word doc (attached), who would like to have a critical look at this? Am I making faulty conclusions? Am I missing out on crucial Bible texts?

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I don't find much to agree with in these charts.

Why are the 2 witnesses in the Seals? Daniel's 70th week doesn't mean anything - what covenant is it? There is no 'whisked away' rapture, but assuming that there was, wouldn't you put it at the 7th Seal? The great tribulation is the 7 Trumpets & Bowls.

AdB said:

But Dan 9:27 clearly states that this will happen halfway the covenant week, so that would be at day 1260...
"And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering."

EDIT: Dan 11:31 also indicates that the "Abomination of Desolation" will then be setup in the Temple, Matthew and Mark clearly indicate that it is after this that the Great Tribulation will start.

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A big part of disagreements - begins because of reading from two different translations.

The kjv version says in "the midst of the week", which is more broad than mid"point".

The translation you are using does not say when the stoppage begins - only that for half the week there will be no sacrifice and offering.

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Okay, why do I have the daily sacrifice stopped before day 1185, the day the abomination of desolation is setup to be worshipped?

Because in Daniel 8:11-13, the little horn person stops the daily sacrifice, before committing the transgression of desolation act. The transgression of desolation act is NOT the abomination of desolation.

The transgression of desolation act is what is in 2Thessalonians2:4.

The transgression of desolation act is what gets the revealed man of sin (the little horn person) killed.

Then after the person is brought back to life - he becomes the beast at that point, and the image of him made and placed in the Holy Place, the temple courtyard where it can readily be seen, on day 1185. The image is the abomination of desolation.

If you are going to make a timeline, it is essential to get it straight in your mind the difference between the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation.

One's an act. The other is a thing.
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I suggested that you make a short narrative of the arch villain of the end times career, beginning to end, with the other functional roles along the way. Being the Antichrist is one of them. But to use the term the Antichrist in blanket fashion for the whole 7 years is wrong .. although almost universally done.

Here is a chart I made that should help. He starts as the little horn, leader of the EU....and ends as the beast, dictator of the EU.


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The critical path of events chart that you are going to end up making - requires you to become an expert on the arch villian of the end times.

A lot of the time, I just refer to the person as "the person" when talking about him rather than the Antichrist because the term the Antichrist is only for the period which he is the King of Israel, mistaken by the Jews as the messiah.

[Christ the King of Israel - Mark 15:31-32] Jesus coming in the name of the Lord. The Antichrist coming in his own name. John 5:43.

That's something else you are going to have to get straight in your mind. When he is the Antichrist, and when he is not - such as being the beast.

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The number one thing that is going to help you in building your critical path chart (other than the Holy Spirit leading you in to all truth of course) is to recognize that it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29. Because that makes the feast on the dead bodies in Ezekiel 39:17-20 the Armageddon feast of Revelation 19:17-18.

Which in turn is 7 years after the destruction of Gog's armies. Which, therefore, those 7 years must be the 7 year seventieth week of Daniel 9:27.

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I hope you do well with your charts.

AdB said:

I personally always tended to be pre-trib, mostly because I am convinced that God will not pour out His Wrath on the believers, at least not the believers who are converted before it all starts (1Thess 1:10, 1Thess 5:9, Rom 5:9 and Luke 21:35-36). So I wasn't even that worried about what would happen how and when, and I still have confidence we will be save in God, yes even if we would be prosecuted and killed. So I've never been "afraid" of the things written in Revelation. It was simply because this friend (who has somewhat mid trib / post trib ideas) challenged me that I took it up to do this review on Revelations.

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Have you looked into the Pre-Wrath Rapture viewpoint ?

AdB said:

I've always had a bit of the position that we can never clearly know what the Book of Revelation it is about until that time has arrived,

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This is what I've been saying all along. A futurist reading of Revelation presumes it's about the future, therefore making it utterly irrelevant for all Christians across the last 2000 years.

Too many Hollywood OMEN movies have coloured the way Americans read Revelation. Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know. Instead of a future timetable to take random guesses at, John indicates that Revelation is about the Roman persecution of the church that is about to start. 4 times in Revelation 1 he indicates it is to his generation:-

1. "to show his servants what must soon take place" (verse 1)
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" (Verse 3). How could the early church obey something about 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near." (verse 3)
4. "I, John, your brother and partner in the TRIBULATION and the kingdom and the PATIENT ENDURANCE that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (Verse 9 - capitals mine.) John already SHARES in *their* TRIBULATION! John was already in jail because of his gospel work, and already demonstrating the common theme throughout the rest of Revelation - that we overcome THIS time we are in by "patient endurance".

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline. It's about how to stay faithful in the time between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day. John uses powerful biblical symbols to describe (not prescribe) what this time will be like. And it could be a long time before Jesus Returns. The number 1000 is commonly used to mean "a gazillion" - like when the Psalm says God owns all the sheep on "a thousand hills." What about the other million hills - does God not own all those two? So Revelation describes a long time, and traces 4 themes. Let's check out the structure. They're to be read along-side each other - not to be read sequentially like some sort of future timeline.

HUMAN HISTORY: THE 1000 YEARS between Jesus Ascension and his Return on Judgement Day:-
Seven seals depicting TYRANNY (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven trumpets depicting CHAOS in nature (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven signs depicting PERSECUTION (then back to the beginning to describe)...
Seven plagues depicting DESTRUCTION.
These episodes are *concurrent*, not consecutive.

What does a particular chapter or image mean? The Bible Project is very good.
Revelation 1 to 11

Revelation 12 to 22.

Or it you want to go deeper, try (retired) Bishop Paul Barnett's book. He is not only a theologian, but has a doctorate in Ancient History and taught ancient history for many years, as well as leading tours of the bible lands.
https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Now-Then-Revelation-Commentaries/dp/1875861416

Bottom line - it describes natural disasters, tyrants persecuting the church as 'beast-states', the temptations of trusting in materialism and luxury and even state security, and all manner of other trials and tribulations and temptations of the last 2000 years and counting.

So what is it like to see Revelation through this lens? Let's look at the famous Dragon and the Beast out of Revelation 13. This describes Rome's persecution of the Christians in Asia Minor. Oh no! Not some mysterious end-times figure to guess at? Nope! But to futurist-Christians that suddenly feel Revelation isn't exciting any more because it's not about them, I want to ask one thing. Is 1 Corinthians about you? Or is it written to the early church of Corinth? Or Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, etc? They're written FOR us today, but TO the churches in those various towns. Why does the bible have to be ABOUT or TO us to be written FOR us?

But - just as reading 1 Corinthians was written to the early church in Corinth - it also applies to us today. So Revelation tells us general principles about beast states that persecute the church. Hitler was one beast state, Stalin another, North Korea yet another. There are many examples - but persecuted Christians have often looked to Revelation as a source of comfort. It's bad - but for the Christians that suffer with patient endurance and hope, Revelation has vivid images of the judgement of the wicked and wonderful promises if we hold fast to our first love. Jesus will return and raise and reward them. Indeed, it's such a powerful theme we see Jesus returning a number of times throughout the book.
Christians reading Revelation this way LAUGH at the futurist idea that John would tell his generation of suffering Christians "You think you've got it bad under the Romans, wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
That's the difference between seeing a thematic sermon and a future timeline. A sermon to his generation is relevant for all Christians across all time. A future timetable is only relevant to those Christians willing to play endless guessing games about the last few years of history. To which I ask - what on earth has been the whole point of the book for the last 2000 years? Honestly!?

eclipsenow said:

This is what I've been saying all along. A futurist reading of Revelation presumes it's about the future, therefore making it utterly irrelevant for all Christians across the last 2000 years.

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Not irrelevant, just because those events did not happen in their day. Just as the new Jerusalem, new heaven, new earth, are not irrelevant to us.

By the rapture/resurrection both the dead in Christ of over two thousand years, and the living in Christ will participate in the redemption of our bodies, completing our salvation, and will return with Jesus at the end of the great tribulation to reign and rule with Him during the thousand years.

eclipsenow said:

Revelation is a symbolic sermon, not a timeline.

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Revelation is a sequence of events, of history before it happens.
Calling that 'highly symbolic', is nothing short of telling God you don't care for His Word.

Douggg said:

and the living in Christ will participate in the redemption of our bodies, completing our salvation, and will return with Jesus at the end of the great tribulation

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Absolute Douggish.
Your lack of scriptural support for your sci-fi beliefs, is your downfall.

'redemption of our bodies'; completely ridiculous and never said to happen. Only after the Millennium will those worthy; receive spiritual bodies.

'return with Jesus', totally impossible and more than a crazy belief, even Spock would laugh at you.

eclipsenow said:

Everyone wants to 'crack the code' and figure out when stuff is going to happen - disobeying and disbelieving the Lord when he says NO ONE will know.

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Jesus's message to Christians was to learn the parable of the fig tree.

Douggg said:

Jesus's message to Christians was to learn the parable of the fig tree.

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Right.
The lesson was that the House of Judah would return and become a nation again. They have, but in apostasy and now face the punishment as prophesied in over 20 scriptures.
WE are the generation that saw it and will see all the rest of the end time events.

@AdB

please consider what I call the anytime rapture view.

keras said:

Right.
The lesson was that the House of Judah would return and become a nation again. They have, but in apostasy and now face the punishment as prophesied in over 20 scriptures.
WE are the generation that saw it and will see all the rest of the end time events.

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...and now will turn to Jesus during the great tribulation.

adb, Please consider the fact that we are told to endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12, +

The Jewish State of Israel will be gone after the forthcoming Lord's Day of fiery wrath. Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 21:1-7
Only a remnant will be saved, Romans 9:27, those few who have accepted Jesus now. Matthew 8:12

AdB said:

Is the ressurrection of the dead also only a spiritual event then?

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Dear AdB,
The resurrection from the grave is a coming future event where Christ gives a dead person a new body so that they live again. It happens at the end of this age. However, Christ does not appear to the lost when this happens. He does appear to the Elect though upon their bodily resurrection. At this time, Christ will meet them "face to face" (1Cor 13:12) because both Christ and His Elect will have glorious spiritual bodies. Very little additional information is given to us about this event or what happens after it in the final age - the Lake of Fire age.

Most scriptures that speak of the resurrection are referring to the spiritual resurrection.

The spiritual resurrection is when a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit/Baptism of the Spirit at their personal second coming of Christ. It is at this point in time when a spiritually dead person is given new life and is "born again". It is conversion and is when a person's original marred vessel (carnal nature) is destroyed and replaced by a new perfect vessel (Holy Spirit).

This event happens at the second coming of Christ and it is an individual event and happens spiritually (it happens within them). Paul's conversion is given as the pattern (type) that we all must follow in order to be saved (1Tim 1:16).

The second coming event has been happening over and over again since the time of the Apostles. As Revelation 1:3 says, the time is at hand. When Christ comes to one of His Elect AFTER they have received the Early Rain, He "appears" to them at this visitation. He "appears" to them because Christ heals their spiritual blindness so that they can start understanding the truth of God from scripture. In other words, Christ's veil is removed for them.

Christ only "appears" two times to mankind. The first time was in the flesh when He appeared to the world physically and went to the cross. The second time is when He appears spiritually within a person at their moment of conversion.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Those who are waiting for Him are "called out" believers who have received the Early Rain. When Christ comes to them with the Latter Rain, He brings salvation to them.

First comes the physical and then comes the spiritual. The Old Covenant is physical and outward. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant at the cross. He is now in the process of fulfilling the New Covenant and it is spiritual and inward. In this age, Christ is bringing the Kingdom of Heaven (Himself) to His chosen Elect and is fulfilling the New Covenant within them.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven and when He comes, He comes spiritually to the individual. He does not come visibly to this world at some future date. He "is, was and will be coming" as I earlier pointed out.

This verse supports this understanding:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the HEAVEN MUST RECEIVE until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

"Heaven must receive" Christ until the end of the final age. At that time, all of creation is restored to the Father by the spiritual work of Christ under the New Covenant. This means that Christ only appears "spiritually" until His work is complete. The physical eye of mankind will never see Christ again. There is no one-time visible "second coming" to this world as is commonly taught.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

The phrase "Every eye shall see Him" is referring to the salvation of mankind. We "see" Christ at our moment of conversion as Heb 9:28 says. And since all mankind will be saved, "every eye" will see Him someday and that truth will be testified to be true in "due time".

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe