John Piper's Agonizing Problem with Assurance of Salvation

[JM]

I found Piper a little confusing: So the agonizing question for some is: do I really have saving faith? Is my faith real? Am I self-deceived? Some well-intentioned people try to lessen the problem by making faith a mere decision to affirm certain truths, like the truth: Jesus is God, and he died for my sins. Some also try to assist assurance by denying that any kind of life-change is really necessary to demonstrate the reality of faith. So they find a way to make James 2:17 mean something other than what is seems to mean: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead." But these strategies to help assurance backfire. They deny some Scripture; and even the minimal faith they preserve can be agonized over and doubted by the tormented soul. They don't solve the problem, and they lose truth. And, perhaps worst of all, they sometimes give assurance to people who should not have it.

The Agonizing Problem of the Assurance of Salvation :: Desiring God Christian Resource Library

Is Piper saying that we can't know or have assurance of salvation?

Thoughts?

 

[JM]

deleted

 

[david01]

As I read Piper, he leaves no doubt that there is such a thing as assurance of salvation and he provides three biblical means whereby one can grasp it.

 

[JM]

As I read Piper, he leaves no doubt that there is such a thing as assurance of salvation and he provides three biblical means whereby one can grasp it.

Could you post the article? It seems in the article I posted above that he doesn't.

j

 

[R.J.S]

Jason,

My advice is ignore Piper and stick with the Westminster Standards on this

Chapter 18: Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation​

18:1 Although hypocrites and other unregenerate men may vainly deceive themselves with false hopes, and carnal presumptions of being in the favour of God, and estate of salvation (Deu_29:9; Job_8:13, Job_8:14; Mic_3:11; Joh_8:41); which hope of theirs shall perish (Mat_7:22, Mat_7:23): yet such as truly believe in the Lord Jesus, and love Him in sincerity, endeavouring to walk in all good conscience before Him, may, in this life, be certainly assured that they are in the state of grace (1Jo_2:3; 1Jo_3:14, 1Jo_3:18, 1Jo_3:19, 1Jo_3:21, 1Jo_3:24; 1Jo_5:13), and may rejoice in the hope of the glory of God, which hope shall never make them ashamed (Rom_5:2, Rom_5:5).

18:2 This certainly is not a bare conjectural and probable persuasion, grounded upon a fallible hope (Heb_6:11, Heb_6:19); but an infallible assurance of faith, founded upon the divine truth of the promises of salvation (Heb_6:17, Heb_6:18), the inward evidence of those graces unto which these promises are made (2Co_1:12; 2Pe_1:4, 2Pe_1:5, 2Pe_1:10, 2Pe_1:11; 1Jo_2:3; 1Jo_3:14), the testimony of the Spirit of adoption witnessing with our spirits that we are the children of God (Rom_8:15, Rom_8:16): which Spirit is the earnest of our inheritance, whereby we are sealed to the day of redemption (2Co_1:21, 2Co_1:22; Eph_1:13, Eph_1:14; Eph_4:30).

18:3 This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be a partaker of it (Psa_77:1-12; 88:1-18; Isa_1:10; Mar_9:24; 1Jo_5:13): yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto (1Co_2:12; Eph_3:17-19; Heb_6:11, Heb_6:12; 1Jo_4:13). And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure (2Pe_1:10); that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience, the proper fruits of this assurance (Psa_4:6, Psa_4:7; Psa_119:32; Eph_1:3, Eph_1:4; Rom_5:1, Rom_5:2, Rom_5:5; Rom_14:17; Rom_15:13): so far is it from inclining men to looseness (Psa_130:4; Joh_3:2, Joh_3:3; Rom_6:1, Rom_6:2; Rom_8:1, Rom_8:12;1Co_7:1; Tit_2:11, Tit_2:12, Tit_2:14; 1Jo_1:6, 1Jo_1:7; 1Jo_2:1, 1Jo_2:2).

18:4 True believers may have the assurance of their salvation divers ways shaken, diminished, and intermitted; as, by negligence in preserving of it, by falling into some special sin, which woundeth the conscience and grieveth the Spirit; by some sudden or vehement temptation, by God’s withdrawing the light of His countenance, and suffering even such as fear Him to walk in darkness and to have no light (Psa_31:22; Psa_77:1-10; 88:1-18; Son_5:2, Son_5:3, Son_5:6; Isa_1:10; Mat_26:69-72; Eph_4:30, Eph_4:31): yet are they never utterly destitute of that seed of God, and life of faith, that love of Christ and the brethren, that sincerity of heart, and conscience of duty, out of which, by the operation of the Spirit, this assurance may, in due time, be revived (Job_13:15; Psa_51:8, Psa_51:12; Psa_73:15; Isa_1:10; Luk_22:32; 1Jo_3:9); and by the which, in the mean time, they are supported from utter despair (Psa_22:1; 88:1-18; Isa_54:7-10; Mic_7:7-9).

Question 80: Can true believers be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and that they shall persevere therein unto salvation?
Answer: Such as truly believe in Christ, and endeavor to walk in all good conscience before him, may, without extraordinary revelation, by faith grounded upon the truth of God’s promises, and by the Spirit enabling them to discern in themselves those graces to which the promises of life are made, and bearing witness with their spirits that they are the children of God, be infallibly assured that they are in the estate of grace, and shall persevere therein unto salvation.
Question 81: Are all true believers at all times assured of their present being in the estate of grace, and that they shall be saved?
Answer: Assurance of grace and salvation not being of the essence of faith, true believers may wait long before they obtain it; and, after the enjoyment thereof, may have it weakened and intermitted, through manifold distempers, sins, temptations, and desertions; yet are they never left without such a presence and support of the Spirit of God as keeps them from sinking into utter despair.

 

[cygnusx1]

Could you post the article? It seems in the article I posted above that he doesn't.

j

Firts off I wouldn't ignore Piper , he is a great blessing to many Christians including me , I would no sooner say ignore the WCF because I am a Credo Baptist than I would expect none Credo's to suggest ignoring "Reformed Baptists" ........

anyhow's ;

here's something along the lines of your request bro...

Helping People Have the Assurance of Salvation



Download:
By John Piper August 5, 1999

FULL ASSURANCE IS GOD'S WILL FOR US. "And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end." Hebrews 6:11
ASSURANCE IS PARTIALLY SUSTAINED BY OBJECTIVE EVIDENCES FOR CHRISTIAN TRUTH. "To [his apostles] He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days." Acts 1:3
ASSURANCE CANNOT NEGLECT THE PAINFUL WORK OF SELF-EXAMINATION. "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you - unless indeed you fail the test?" 2 Corinthians 13:5
ASSURANCE WILL DIMINISH IN THE PRESENCE OF CONCEALED SIN. "When I kept silent about my sin, my body wasted away through my groaning all day long." Psalm 32:3
ASSURANCE COMES FROM HEARING THE WORD OF CHRIST. "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." Romans 10:17
"These have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." John 20:31
REPEATED FOCUSING ON THE SUFFICIENCY OF THE CROSS OF CHRIST IS CRUCIAL FOR ASSURANCE. "Since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith." Hebrews 10:21-22
WE MUST PRAY FOR EYES TO SEE THE TRUTHS THAT SUSTAIN ASSURANCE. "I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe." Ephesians 1:18-19


etc


John Piper


http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...lping_People_Have_the_Assurance_of_Salvation/

 

[R.J.S]

Firts off I wouldn't ignore Piper

If he is any good then he will only be repeating what the English Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians have already said.

 

[cygnusx1]

If he is any good then he will only be repeating what the English Puritans and Scottish Presbyterians have already said.

don't be so dismissive bro.......... and why are you online on a Sunday after telling us you think it's the Sabbath ? that's twice now !

 

[arunma]

Firts off I wouldn't ignore Piper , he is a great blessing to many Christians including me

Me too. I attended his church when I was in college, and Piper has taught me most of what I know about the Bible.

Anyway, when I have some time I'll look at this and see if I have anything meaningful to contribute.

 

[cygnusx1]

Me too. I attended his church when I was in college, and Piper has taught me most of what I know about the Bible.

Anyway, when I have some time I'll look at this and see if I have anything meaningful to contribute.

well said bro , btw , I just this week got hold of a book a rather large book that I have been meaning to get for a long time , it is a commentary on Romans by Thomas Schreiner , anyway , the reason I mention this is because in the dedication page I read one of the sweetest one's I have ever read in any book ;


"To John Piper , who has proclaimed to me the supremacy of God."


isn't that wonderful coming from a scholar ;

Tom Schreiner (b. 1954), a conservative evangelical theologian, has been professor of New Testament Interpretation at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky since 1997. He previously served 11 years on the faculty at Bethel Theological Seminary, and also taught New Testament at Azusa Pacific University. Schreiner received a B.S. from Western Oregon University, an M.Div. and Th.M. from Western Conservative Baptist Seminary, and his Ph.D. from Fuller Theological Seminary.

http://www.theopedia.com/Tom_Schreiner

 

[R.J.S]

why are you online on a Sunday after telling us you think it's the Sabbath ? that's twice now !

I ignored you the last time because I thought you were being your juvenile self.

This time I will respond.

The use of the Internet on the Sabbath is not forbidden it depends what you use it for. Spiritual conversation to be forbidden by the fourth commandment.

 

[cygnusx1]

I ignored you the last time because I thought you were being your juvenile self.

This time I will respond.

The use of the Internet on the Sabbath is not forbidden it depends what you use it for. Spiritual conversation to be forbidden by the fourth commandment.

ROFLMBO !!!!!!!!!!!

yeh AV , if you say so

let me know if you buy any Christmas presents too !!

 

[R.J.S]

ROFLMBO

If it is forbidden as you seem to think, then why are you on it?

Using the Internet to:
1. Download some sermons,
2. Get notes for Bible study,
3. Read Christian literature,
4. Discuss the Scriptures.

What a naughty boy I am!

 

[cygnusx1]

If it is forbidden as you seem to think, then why are you on it?

me ?

i am not a strict sabbatarian , unlike yourself of course.

I am a passionate Sabbatarian. I would suggest that you read or listen to these:

now for a recap ;

Richard,

If we use the internet on Sunday, are we causing others to work on the Sabbath? (Someboy's gotta keep those servers up and running)

Just curious.

Brad

PS. Don't any of you get upset with me.... I'm staying out of this pretty much because, although I tend to agree with Cyg, I'm not yet set in my mind about it. I'm just having fun teasing my brother Richard. It would almost be sacreligous to pass up the opportunity.

BTW, Richard, have you finished your driving theory class yet? When do you get to go out and clear the sidewalks?

Originally Posted by bradfordl
If we use the internet on Sunday, are we causing others to work on the Sabbath? (Someboy's gotta keep those servers up and running)

If what you say is true, and I have no idea, then it would indeed be wrong to use the internet on the sabbath and I would stop.

My beloved brother, it is true, there must be folks working all the time to keep this internet thing up and running. As also is true of telephones, television, the electric service to your home, and gas service, and DRIVING on the roads (police), electric service to your Church building, and so on and so forth. So what should those of us who are scrict sabbatarians do?

absolutely Brad , (keep digging) and hot meals on the Sabbath are against the Law ...... even A W Pink refused hot meals on a Sunday (he thought it was the Sabbath) his wife Vera prepared the food the day before , and it was all cold food.


Now those who amongst us wish to be under the Law , better be prepared to KEEP the entire Law , not just merely a modified version. (no travel , no music , no TV , no reading for pleasure , no gardening , no DIY etc etc etc)

http://christianforums.com/t5700848&page=4

 

[R.J.S]

now for a recap

http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/internet-use-sabbath-25036/

 

[cygnusx1]

http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/internet-use-sabbath-25036/

if you say so bro................


happy Christmas

 

[JM]

Hey folks, sorry for the confusion. I posted a video in the second post which was causing the confusion. http://www.puritanboard.com/f15/agonizing-problem-assurance-salvation-27257/

 

[nasa1]

I think the book of 1st John tells us plainly how we can know we are saved.


NASA