John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

Oscarr said:

Just to answer LivingWorship's question:

I won't name the church because of the large number of sincere Christians who go it. The pastor of this church (about 2000 people or more) is paid a six figure salary, probably more than the Prime Minister of our country, lives a lavish lifestyle - all paid for from the offerings of his church. The church has a pyramid leadership with him at the top. He is the founder of the church, and it is largely built around his personality.

When you think that the standard Presbyterian or Baptist minister (those I know about) gets around $35,000 NZ (reduce it by about 30 percent to get USD, and divide it by 3 to get British pounds to put it into an international perspective), then I think that a six figure salary is excessive for a person who is supposed to be called to the ministry and who would be expected to be paid enough to meet his or her needs.

The average worker in New Zealand gets $35-40,000 a year, and I think that paying a pastor a salary in that salary band it quite acceptable. But seeing a pastor with the influence has has on such a large church taking home over a hundred thousand dollars a year from the church funds for his own use is certainly profiting very well from his Christian service!

Of course this is small bickies compared to the income of some of these American TV evangelists who take home millions of dollars from the hard earned income of the faithful, but by New Zealand standards it is enough to see the difference between a faithful man of God getting his and his family's needs met during the course of his ministry, and another guy raking in the dough through his strong control of the church he is running.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about the man. He has thousands of dedicated followers and disciples who think he is the best pastor that they have ever had, and hang on his every word when he preaches, so I guess that the real judge of these matters is the Lord, and I could be sinning through envy wishing that I could get a salary like that for myself.

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I do not necessarily see anything wrong with the pastor of a mega-church making a mega-salary providing that the needs of the poor and needy in their community and among their members are cared for and inordinate pressure is not put on the members to fund the church. I also think it is important that the membership be aware of the exact figure (salary and expenses) of the pastor and not bury it from their sight. It does not have to be posted but should be available to members on a need-to-know basis.

If a pastor of a 5,000-member church is making a salary of $150,000 with maybe $50,000 expense allowance, his compensation is still probably less than 4% of the churches annual income and that would not be unreasonable. The average church in the US gives around $20 per Sunday per person in attendance and compensates its ministers and employees with about 40% of its income.

\o/

Shalia said:

TOL, can I have my ten foot pole now? I'll sign whatever I need to...

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Yes Ma'am, here ya go.

A word of advice though. They seem to have a greater effect when you first lightly tap, and then give a "vertical butt-stroke" to the chops with the other end. You have the stick velocity and the element of surprise in your favor that way!

Jim M said:

I do not necessarily see anything wrong with the pastor of a mega-church making a mega-salary providing that the needs of the poor and needy in their community and among their members are cared for and inordinate pressure is not put on the members to fund the church. I also think it is important that the membership be aware of the exact figure (salary and expenses) of the pastor and not bury it from their sight. It does not have to be posted but should be available to members on a need-to-know basis.

If a pastor of a 5,000-member church is making a salary of $150,000 with maybe $50,000 expense allowance, his compensation is still probably less than 4% of the churches annual income and that would not be unreasonable. The average church in the US gives around $20 per Sunday per person in attendance and compensates its ministers and employees with about 40% of its income.

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As per usual, a thoughtful remark. Well done Jim. I reckon churches need to ba accountable - and not everyone needs to know. Having said that, I understand that most do that... if they didn't I am sure the government wouldn't be too merciful.

Hey, if God blesses me with a Ferrari and I want to drive it its non of your business! I just reach the lost faster.

If He “gives” you a Ferrari, that’s one thing. If you go out and sink a loan for one that puts you and your family in a financial jam and say God gave it to you (i.e., blame God for your foolishness), that’s another thing. But you are right, it is still none of our business. But we can think what we want to think. And that’s none of your business.

\o/

Celticflame said:

Any Thoughts On This Topic?




John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:
But a wealth-and-prosperity doctrine is afoot today, shaped by the half truth that says, "We glorify God with our money by enjoying thankfully all the things he enables us to buy. Why should a son of the King live like a pauper?" And so on. The true half of this is that we should give thanks for every good thing God enables us to have. That does glorify him. The false half is the subtle implication that God can be glorified in this way by all kinds of luxurious purchases.

If this were true, Jesus would not have said, "Sell your possessions and give alms" (Luke 12:33). He would not have said, "Do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink" (Luke 12:29). John the Baptist would not have said, "He who has two coats, let him share with who has none" (Luke 3:11). The Son of Man would not have walked around with no place to lay his head (Luke 9:58). And Zacchaeus would not have given half his goods to the poor (Luke 19:8).

God is not glorified when we keep for ourselves (no matter how thankfully) what we ought to be using to alleviate the misery of unevangelized, uneducated, unmedicated, and unfed millions. The evidence that many professing Christians have been deceived by this doctrine is how little they give and how much they own. God has prospered them. And by an almost irresistible law of consumer culture (baptized by a doctrine of health, wealth, and prosperity) they have bought bigger (and more) houses, newer (and more) cars, fancier (and more) clothes, better (and more) meat, and all manner of trinkets and gadgets and containers and devices and equipment to make life more fun.

They will object: Does not the Old Testament promise that God will prosper his people? Indeed! God increases our yield so that by giving we can prove our yield is not our god. God does not prosper a man's business so he can move from a Ford to a Cadillac. God prospers a business so that 17,000 unreached peoples can be reached with the gospel. He prospers a business so that twelve percent of the world's population can move a step back from the precipice of starvation. [size=-1]quoted from Chap7 - Money: The currency of Christian Hedonism. Desiring God by John Piper[/size]

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You have to distinguish between Provision and Possession - Worldly and Carnal Human Lust leads to the desire to possess.

The Sufficiency of Grace releases the abundant sufficiency of His Provision.

TreeOfLife said:

Yes Ma'am, here ya go.

A word of advice though. They seem to have a greater effect when you first lightly tap, and then give a "vertical butt-stroke" to the chops with the other end. You have the stick velocity and the element of surprise in your favor that way!

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Why, thank you for the beautiful pole and the combat lesson to go w/ it.

ShaunJ said:

Hey, if God blesses me with a Ferrari and I want to drive it its non of your business! I just reach the lost faster.

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Heh... make sure it's red - you'll reach the lost faster in a red one

LivingWorship said:

Heh... make sure it's red - you'll reach the lost faster in a red one

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There’s wisdom in this (for those who have ears to hear).

\o/

LivingWorship said:

Heh... make sure it's red - you'll reach the lost faster in a red one

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I think YELLOW would be better. It's bright and has a way of drawing attention

The pastor of this church (about 2000 people or more) is paid a six figure salary, probably more than the Prime Minister of our country, lives a lavish lifestyle - all paid for from the offerings of his church. The church has a pyramid leadership with him at the top. He is the founder of the church, and it is largely built around his personality. When you think that the standard Presbyterian or Baptist minister (those I know about) gets around $35,000

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I'm not sure which pastor you're talking about, but at my church - Hillsong, the pastor is cool and i'm pretty sure he gets a lot of money...but i know he also works a lot, more than many pastors with smaller churches, and i know also that he gives a lot. And i know that when the church started they did struggle...Since i've been going there i've seen that one of the core beliefs of the senior pastors is that we are blessed to be a blessing. They also have a teenage daughter (if ur wondering where all their money goes... )...
On the other hand at my previous church, a small Baptist congregation of about 100, the pastor made about $35k but he worked 8-4, 4 days a week and Sunday morning, the house he's living in was paid for by the church (still the property of the church)

And about Hillsong Conference, it is awesome, i love it. I dont know about the costs and figures and stuff, but i do believe in speaking about financial giving. You go to conference, get a lot of practical stuff out of it...why would you even add up the figures? Just a little thought, at conference there are a lot of people that come in for free. People who can't afford it can talk to the pastors and sometimes they'll give them free registration, as is for Mercy ministry girls and a few other groups of people. Also volunteers dont pay, but i'm not sure if they're considered delegates. But at church, we spend 5 or 10 mins a service talking about giving financially, and then spend a half hour speaking about giving in some other way...i dont know, i think it balances out. It's so funny coz financial giving is so scrutinised...as soon as someone says money people pay attention and start to judge. I think that when you do that you know its a real problem. If my church spent excessive amounts of time talking about spiritual gifts and how were meant to use them for the church, i would not have a problem with it - its scary that people are so touchy about their money. i honestly dont care where it goes - (as long as its not going to like buy drugs and stuff) i really give only for God and out of sacrifice, and i know that doing that all my needs will be met. I dont care if all the money i ever give to my church is collected and when my pastor retires it buys him a villa in italy, i wouldnt mind, coz the teaching that he's brought me is worth so much more than money - there'll always be more money...i know that i'm giving for God, and supporting the church he's called me to.

Just another thing...if i had $1 billion, how much would u expect me 2 give to the church?

Sorry its so long...and it prolly doesnt make sense...i get passionate...

misdeavious said:

Just another thing...if i had $1 billion, how much would u expect me 2 give to the church?

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You wouldn't have $1 billion if you don't know what to do with it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds more like, "How much do I get to keep?"

Why would God ever want to give anyone anything without purpose?

misdeavious said:

Just another thing...if i had $1 billion, how much would u expect me 2 give to the church?

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All of it

I dont know about that - i think that people can have money even if they can't handle that amount. I was actually asking the question because i know of a guy that earns millions and millions of dollars a year (i think he's worth a few billion by now) who is a Christian and does give a very large amount of money to the church...so is it 'ungodly' of him to keep say 1 million a year?

misdeavious said:

I dont know about that - i think that people can have money even if they can't handle that amount. I was actually asking the question because i know of a guy that earns millions and millions of dollars a year (i think he's worth a few billion by now) who is a Christian and does give a very large amount of money to the church...so is it 'ungodly' of him to keep say 1 million a year?

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It wouldn't necessarily be 'ungodly' of him to keep all of it, as much as it could still be 'ungodly' if he gave it all away. We aren't more or less 'godly' or 'ungodly' on how much we keep or give. That's not the gauge.

misdeavious said:

I dont know about that - i think that people can have money even if they can't handle that amount. I was actually asking the question because i know of a guy that earns millions and millions of dollars a year (i think he's worth a few billion by now) who is a Christian and does give a very large amount of money to the church...so is it 'ungodly' of him to keep say 1 million a year?

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I was actually joking in my post. The Bible tells us that we have the choice of sowing sparingly or bountifully. The choice determines the return on our giving (2 Cor. 9:6)

Shalia said:

Why, thank you for the beautiful pole and the combat lesson to go w/ it.

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You are quite welcome.

I figured you'd understand the mechanics of that!...

Jim M said:

If He “gives” you a Ferrari, that’s one thing. If you go out and sink a loan for one that puts you and your family in a financial jam and say God gave it to you (i.e., blame God for your foolishness), that’s another thing. But you are right, it is still none of our business. But we can think what we want to think. And that’s none of your business.

\o/

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Sinking a loan and saying God did it would be lie now wouldn't it? God's own word says the borrower is slave to the lender. I'm not sure but last time I checked God doesn't roll that way.

If I can't pay for something in cash I don't get it. Simple enough.

ShaunJ said:

Sinking a loan and saying God did it would be lie now wouldn't it? God's own word says the borrower is slave to the lender. I'm not sure but last time I checked God doesn't roll that way.

If I can't pay for something in cash I don't get it. Simple enough.

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Too bad that message doesn’t get through to some people who have swallowed the “prosperity” doctrine.

\o/

Jim M said:

Too bad that message doesn’t get through to some people who have swallowed the “prosperity” doctrine.

\o/

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I for one have never seen anyone teach that you should get a loan and believe God. There are people throughout this world that lack common since. Christian or non.

I don't mean this bad but some people are just s-s-st-st-stupid.