John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

12volt_man · Oct 9, 2005

didaskalos said:
The people you were mixed up with were not (IMO) WoF as I understand it to be. And they were wrong in what they said.
Peace
Dids

If Gary Whetstone and Bob Palmer aren't WoF then I can't imagine who in the world is.

Celticflame · Oct 9, 2005

12volt_man sorry to hear off your expereinces.

I believe John Piper's Article is very balance. And he does not imply a Poverty Mindset. Just because you don't want to spend of big Houses and cars does not mean you have a Poverty Mindset. John has clearly pointed out that the man made "Wealth Doctrine" revolves around Material Blessing. Now he does not rule out that God Prospers his Children, he does and it is for the Kingdom.

I read Recently that Rick Warren made so much money from his book, that he handed back 25 years of wages from his church, and reversed the tith so he lives now on 10% and gives 90%.

12volt_man · Oct 9, 2005

Celticflame said:
12volt_man sorry to hear off your expereinces.

Thanks. That was a long time ago.

I've gotten past a lot of baggage I had from that time. God's good.

Some friends, who are in the same boat, as I was have talked about starting an outreach to people coming out of WoF churches.

Every time I post something about my experiences in the WoF movement, I get responses and PMs telling me all sorts of horror stories.

It seems like more and more people are falling for it but, at the same time, I see more and more people being delivered out of it, so I do believe that God is moving in that area.

I believe John Piper's Article is very balanced.

It was. I have to be honest, I know of him but I'm not really familiar with his writings. I may have to fix that this week.

I read Recently that Rick Warren made so much money from his book, that he handed back 25 years of wages from his church, and reversed the tith so he lives now on 10% and gives 90%.

I saw that.

I'm sure we can count on Benny Hinn to do the same thing, soon.

JimB · Oct 9, 2005

Christina M said:
Does it really matter anymore, Dids, if they like us or not? Personally, I am sick and tired of trying to convince people that God wants them blessed.... they seem to take such pride in being poor.... and are self-righteous about it to boot.

It's just about as bad as casting pearl before swine.

I think the article in the OP is actually saying that God WANTS to bless us with prosperity for the right reason (like seeking first the kingdom of God). Did you read what Piper said or just what Dids said about what Piper said?
\o/

enoch son · Oct 11, 2005

didaskalos said:
I agree.
A compassionate heart could never live in a giant mansion while poor and even starving people huddle on street corners just blocks from their hourse.
Where is the love my dear prosperity teachers?
As you know es, I teach prosperity... but "prosperity as in all needs being met" not "piles of money to burn".
I might be thinking to much of my self... but if I were a millionaire, there would be soup kitchens and super low rent appartments going up all over the place. Having been poor to the point of being homeless myself, I feel very sad when I see a hungry child here or abroad.

time:
Lord give us a compassionate heart of love that sees needs and acts accordingly. Lord forgive us for being hard hearted in regards to the poor. Let us turn a corner here and say we will not turn a blind eye to the plight of the widow and orphan. Let us reach out to the homeless and destitute... not in a judging or condesending way, but with true love and mercy. Oh Lord, live your life through us.
In Jesus name.

I have no problem with a balance doctrine. but when some judge others by things that get hairy. good post.

victoryword · Oct 11, 2005

Celticflame said:
Any Thoughts On This Topic?

Yes, I have some thoughts:

Piper is a CALVINIST!!! While Calvinists are not the only critics of the Faith Movement, a lot of the criticisms as well as the distortion of pertinent facts seems come heavily from their camp. Piper is also one of those who believes that God was involved in the 9-11 incident, being in His sovereignty, responsible for it. Any theologian that accuses (my word) God like that has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to his views on brothers and sisters of a different theological persuasion. Nevertheless, let's examine some of his article:

Celticflame said:
John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:
But a wealth-and-prosperity doctrine is afoot today, shaped by the half truth that says, "We glorify God with our money by enjoying thankfully all the things he enables us to buy. Why should a son of the King live like a pauper?" And so on.

It is true that some EXTEMISTS may teach a doctrine of prosperity for selfish gain, but this is far from being a staple of propsperity teaching. Major Faith Teachers actually dispute such a wicked notion as can be seen from the quotes below:

The faith message is not the only message in the Word of God, but some have latched onto the faith of God - what it can get them, and so forth - until they have perverted this greatest truth of God's Word. (Kenneth Hagin Jr. Itching Ears, P. 7, 1982)

For the last two years I've told our RHEMA students, "If you came here with ears itching to get faith so you can drive Cadillacs, fly airplanes, or have million-dollar homes, go home. Or else reach up, pull off those itching ears, and say, 'I'm here to receive what God has for me.' Pp. 17, 18 (Kenneth Hagin Jr., Itching Ears, 1982)

... what has happened is that a lot of Christians have made prosperity a thing for me, myself, and I - us three. They have made the prosperity message a way to get bigger houses, newer cars, more designer clothes, and a nice bank account. Many have forgotten about those in the world who don't know Jesus, and are lost and on their way to hell. (Fred Price, "The Purpose of Prosperity," Page 6)

So as can be seen from the above quotes, Piper misleads his readers by painting with a wider brush than is necessary. He does not acknowledge the fact that even some prosperity proponents have stood up against the excess in the teaching. Many just totally ignore the late Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s lanmark book, The Midas Touch.

Celticflame said:
The true half of this is that we should give thanks for every good thing God enables us to have. That does glorify him. The false half is the subtle implication that God can be glorified in this way by all kinds of luxurious purchases.

This is a false presentation of what is being taught. What most of the faith teachers teach is that God is NOT glorified by His children being impoverished (If Piper differs on this then he really should read Matthew 7:7-11 and see how God portrays Himself as one who is better than human fathers). God is glorified when His children have more than enough - enough to take care of themselves and to be a blessing to others and the gospel. How does a Christian bring God any glory if he/she cannot pay his/her bills. That my friend is a bad testimony. Who wants your Christianity if it leaves you in poverty? Furthermore, God is glorified when we use the wealth He gives us for helping get the gospel out to the world. Fred Price further writes:

I believe that in the pursuit of wealth, the Church has lost sight of its priorities and has put seeking the lost on the backburner ... The wealth is for the body of Christ to have the funds to go into all the world and preach the gospel, and that is why God wants us to prosper. (Page 7)

Celticflame said:
If this were true, Jesus would not have said, "Sell your possessions and give alms" (Luke 12:33). He would not have said, "Do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink" (Luke 12:29). John the Baptist would not have said, "He who has two coats, let him share with who has none" (Luke 3:11). The Son of Man would not have walked around with no place to lay his head (Luke 9:58). And Zacchaeus would not have given half his goods to the poor (Luke 19:8).

First Piper creates this strawman of his own making and then he finds out-of-context Scripture to refute it. Now THAT is funny. But let's look at these. If one would read Luke 12:25-32 they will see that verse 33 is not at all in dispute with TRUE WoF Prosperity teaching since the Faith teachers emphasize giving to help others above all else. Now if Piper wants to accuse the faith teachers of not selling all of their possession, let us at least see him provide an example of this. Besides, seeing that the disciples maintained their fishing equipment, clothes, swords, and other goodies, how LITERALLY did they take Jesus on that statement?

Those who read Luke 12 in context will also see that faith teachers preach these same verses like the one in 29 to show that we are not to worry about food and clothing because God is our provider. Luke 3:11 is also true to WoF propserity teaching. Copeland writes:

Begin to include the Body of Christ in your needs. Begin to include the lost in your needs. If a man came to you needing clothes and you didnt have any clothes to give him, both of you would be in trouble. You need clothes for yourself, and you need to be able to supply him with clothes. (Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, p. 25)

In luke 9:58, this is the classic "Jesus was living in poverty" teaching. yet, are we to read the gospels and see that Jesus NEVER had a place to sleep? Is Mr. Piper going without a nice comfortable bed? Finally, he takes Luke 19:8 out of context, forgetting that Zacchaeus first stole from those people and was simply making restitution for the evil that he had done now that he was saved. Therefore, Piper's strawman coupled with out-of-context Scripture is a sad declaration of how far one will go to dispute someone that they disagree with.

Celticflame said:
God is not glorified when we keep for ourselves (no matter how thankfully) what we ought to be using to alleviate the misery of unevangelized, uneducated, unmedicated, and unfed millions. The evidence that many professing Christians have been deceived by this doctrine is how little they give and how much they own. God has prospered them. And by an almost irresistible law of consumer culture (baptized by a doctrine of health, wealth, and prosperity) they have bought bigger (and more) houses, newer (and more) cars, fancier (and more) clothes, better (and more) meat, and all manner of trinkets and gadgets and containers and devices and equipment to make life more fun.

This man is so full of strawmen to knock down that it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Rather than the selfish gospel that Piper claims is being taught in all prosperity circles, Copeland writes:

If you know how to use Gods ability to receive healing and never use it to help anyone but yourself, then it wont work foryou very long. If you can believe God for healing, help some-one else get healed. Spread it around! If you know how to believe God financially, start helping the people around you. You will begin to grow as you reach out to others. (Laws of Propserity, p. 22)

True prosperity is the ability to look a man in the eye in his moment of impossibility and take his needs as your own. Those who are spiritual are to help those who are not. We are to bear one anothers burdens. When a brother comes to you with a problem, join with him in prayer, join your faith with his. Put pressure on Satan with the Name of Jesus and get him off the man. Put pressure on the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Lean on your righteousness in Jesus Christ. Lean hard on it! Lean hard on your sonship. Lean hard on the blood of Jesus. Praise God, they work! (Laws of Prosperity, p. 31)

Celticflame said:
They will object: Does not the Old Testament promise that God will prosper his people? Indeed! God increases our yield so that by giving we can prove our yield is not our god. God does not prosper a man's business so he can move from a Ford to a Cadillac. God prospers a business so that 17,000 unreached peoples can be reached with the gospel. He prospers a business so that twelve percent of the world's population can move a step back from the precipice of starvation. [size=-1]quoted from Chap7 - Money: The currency of Christian Hedonism. Desiring God by John Piper[/size]

Now, after presenting a DISTORTED and FALSE picture of what most major prosperity proponents preach, Piper then goes on to present the TRUE doctrine that is taught both from Scripture and amongst most of the WoF teachers. Yet, he presents it as his own teaching and as an argument against the strawman that he has built concerning others. I am unaware of any WoF teacher that would disagree with Piper's last statement.

I am not sure what it is that causes men like Piper and others to go out of their way to present a false picture of the Propserity message. Perhaps they want to make themselves look like the heroes who are rescuing people from a dangerous and false teaching while presenting a true and Scriptural balance. It reminds me of a comic book superhero I read some years ago who would hire supervillains to stage a public battle with him. They would take a fall and he would look like the city's great rescuer. This seem's to be what Piper is doing. However, he seems to be living in a pipe[r] dream.

victoryword · Oct 14, 2005

So John Piper fans, I have yet to hear from you concerning his broad sweeping (and at most points "false") accusations against prosperity preachers.

Andrew · Oct 14, 2005

victoryword said:
Yes, I have some thoughts:

Piper is a CALVINIST!!! While Calvinists are not the only critics of the Faith Movement, a lot of the criticisms as well as the distortion of pertinent facts seems come heavily from their camp. Piper is also one of those who believes that God was involved in the 9-11 incident, being in His sovereignty, responsible for it. Any theologian that accuses (my word) God like that has to be taken with a grain of salt when it comes to his views on brothers and sisters of a different theological persuasion. Nevertheless, let's examine some of his article:

It is true that some EXTEMISTS may teach a doctrine of prosperity for selfish gain, but this is far from being a staple of propsperity teaching. Major Faith Teachers actually dispute such a wicked notion as can be seen from the quotes below:

The faith message is not the only message in the Word of God, but some have latched onto the faith of God - what it can get them, and so forth - until they have perverted this greatest truth of God's Word. (Kenneth Hagin Jr. Itching Ears, P. 7, 1982)

For the last two years I've told our RHEMA students, "If you came here with ears itching to get faith so you can drive Cadillacs, fly airplanes, or have million-dollar homes, go home. Or else reach up, pull off those itching ears, and say, 'I'm here to receive what God has for me.' Pp. 17, 18 (Kenneth Hagin Jr., Itching Ears, 1982)

... what has happened is that a lot of Christians have made prosperity a thing for me, myself, and I - us three. They have made the prosperity message a way to get bigger houses, newer cars, more designer clothes, and a nice bank account. Many have forgotten about those in the world who don't know Jesus, and are lost and on their way to hell. (Fred Price, "The Purpose of Prosperity," Page 6)

So as can be seen from the above quotes, Piper misleads his readers by painting with a wider brush than is necessary. He does not acknowledge the fact that even some prosperity proponents have stood up against the excess in the teaching. Many just totally ignore the late Kenneth Hagin Sr.'s lanmark book, The Midas Touch.

This is a false presentation of what is being taught. What most of the faith teachers teach is that God is NOT glorified by His children being impoverished (If Piper differs on this then he really should read Matthew 7:7-11 and see how God portrays Himself as one who is better than human fathers). God is glorified when His children have more than enough - enough to take care of themselves and to be a blessing to others and the gospel. How does a Christian bring God any glory if he/she cannot pay his/her bills. That my friend is a bad testimony. Who wants your Christianity if it leaves you in poverty? Furthermore, God is glorified when we use the wealth He gives us for helping get the gospel out to the world. Fred Price further writes:

I believe that in the pursuit of wealth, the Church has lost sight of its priorities and has put seeking the lost on the backburner ... The wealth is for the body of Christ to have the funds to go into all the world and preach the gospel, and that is why God wants us to prosper. (Page 7)

First Piper creates this strawman of his own making and then he finds out-of-context Scripture to refute it. Now THAT is funny. But let's look at these. If one would read Luke 12:25-32 they will see that verse 33 is not at all in dispute with TRUE WoF Prosperity teaching since the Faith teachers emphasize giving to help others above all else. Now if Piper wants to accuse the faith teachers of not selling all of their possession, let us at least see him provide an example of this. Besides, seeing that the disciples maintained their fishing equipment, clothes, swords, and other goodies, how LITERALLY did they take Jesus on that statement?

Those who read Luke 12 in context will also see that faith teachers preach these same verses like the one in 29 to show that we are not to worry about food and clothing because God is our provider. Luke 3:11 is also true to WoF propserity teaching. Copeland writes:

Begin to include the Body of Christ in your needs. Begin to include the lost in your needs. If a man came to you needing clothes and you didnt have any clothes to give him, both of you would be in trouble. You need clothes for yourself, and you need to be able to supply him with clothes. (Kenneth Copeland, The Laws of Prosperity, p. 25)

In luke 9:58, this is the classic "Jesus was living in poverty" teaching. yet, are we to read the gospels and see that Jesus NEVER had a place to sleep? Is Mr. Piper going without a nice comfortable bed? Finally, he takes Luke 19:8 out of context, forgetting that Zacchaeus first stole from those people and was simply making restitution for the evil that he had done now that he was saved. Therefore, Piper's strawman coupled with out-of-context Scripture is a sad declaration of how far one will go to dispute someone that they disagree with.

This man is so full of strawmen to knock down that it would be funny if it weren't so pathetic. Rather than the selfish gospel that Piper claims is being taught in all prosperity circles, Copeland writes:

If you know how to use Gods ability to receive healing and never use it to help anyone but yourself, then it wont work foryou very long. If you can believe God for healing, help some-one else get healed. Spread it around! If you know how to believe God financially, start helping the people around you. You will begin to grow as you reach out to others. (Laws of Propserity, p. 22)

True prosperity is the ability to look a man in the eye in his moment of impossibility and take his needs as your own. Those who are spiritual are to help those who are not. We are to bear one anothers burdens. When a brother comes to you with a problem, join with him in prayer, join your faith with his. Put pressure on Satan with the Name of Jesus and get him off the man. Put pressure on the laws of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Lean on your righteousness in Jesus Christ. Lean hard on it! Lean hard on your sonship. Lean hard on the blood of Jesus. Praise God, they work! (Laws of Prosperity, p. 31)

Now, after presenting a DISTORTED and FALSE picture of what most major prosperity proponents preach, Piper then goes on to present the TRUE doctrine that is taught both from Scripture and amongst most of the WoF teachers. Yet, he presents it as his own teaching and as an argument against the strawman that he has built concerning others. I am unaware of any WoF teacher that would disagree with Piper's last statement.

I am not sure what it is that causes men like Piper and others to go out of their way to present a false picture of the Propserity message. Perhaps they want to make themselves look like the heroes who are rescuing people from a dangerous and false teaching while presenting a true and Scriptural balance. It reminds me of a comic book superhero I read some years ago who would hire supervillains to stage a public battle with him. They would take a fall and he would look like the city's great rescuer. This seem's to be what Piper is doing. However, he seems to be living in a pipe[r] dream.

Excellent!

12volt_man · Oct 14, 2005

victoryword said:
So John Piper fans, I have yet to hear from you concerning his broad sweeping (and at most points "false") accusations against prosperity preachers.

Maybe the silence isn't due to a lack of faith in Piper's statements, but a lack of respect for you.

JimB · Oct 14, 2005

May I ask, dummy that I am, Why would God want every Christian to be wealthy? Give my Christian nephew a million dollars and he would spend two million before sundown. He loves the prosperity teaching, but then he also loves the self-indulgence it offers him.

\o/

victoryword · Oct 14, 2005

Andrew said:
Excellent!

Hey, you're not a John Piper fan

But thankee for the encouragement

Andrew · Oct 14, 2005

Who's John Piper?

But seriously, a bit tired of all this for/agst prosperity debates.

Why can't God just take all the prosperity of those against prosperity and give it all to those for prosperity. Then I think both sides will be happy.

Shalia · Oct 14, 2005

Andrew said:
Who's John Piper?

But seriously, a bit tired of all this for/agst prosperity debates.

Why can't God just take all the prosperity of those against prosperity and give it all to those for prosperity. Then I think both sides will be happy.

Because, inherently, humans are whiny and it gives us nothing to whine about!!

victoryword · Oct 14, 2005

Shalia said:
Because, inherently, humans are whiny and it gives us nothing to whine about!!

Yep, we would have nothing to fight about. But I do agree with Andrew. If people are against prosperity then just fork every dollar over to those of us who believe that God wants us to have it. They can rest assure that we propserity proponents will put it to good (godly) use.

12volt_man · Oct 14, 2005

Jim M said:
May I ask, dummy that I am, Why would God want every Christian to be wealthy? Give my Christian nephew a million dollars and he would spend two million before sundown. He loves the prosperity teaching, but then he also loves the self-indulgence it offers him.

\o/

Because when we're rich, then we can sow seeds of faith to prosperity teachers and they, in turn can sow seeds of faith to their local Mercedes-Benz dealer.

Andrew · Oct 14, 2005

12volt_man said:
Because when we're rich, then we can sow seeds of faith to prosperity teachers and they, in turn can sow seeds of faith to their local Mercedes-Benz dealer.

I can see you dont like Mercedes Benzs. There's always Hyundai.

Andrew · Oct 14, 2005

Why would God want every Christian to be wealthy?

What kind of a dumb question is that?!

It's like saying why would God want every want to be part of the Royal Priesthood -- kings and priests.

Or like saying why would God want everyone saved.

Or like saying why would God want everyone to enjoy shalom.

victoryword · Oct 14, 2005

Jim M said:
May I ask, dummy that I am, Why would God want every Christian to be wealthy?

Sorry I missed your post Jim. Yours was a sincere question.

You are not a dummy. God doesn't make dummies. You are a new creation in Christ and Jesus has become your wisdom (1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:17)

Anyway, the Scripture are clear that God wants His children wealthy:

Remember this: The farmer who plants a few seeds will have a very small harvest. But the farmer who plants because he has received God's blessings will receive a harvest of God's blessings in return. Each of you should give whatever you have decided. You shouldn't be sorry that you gave or feel forced to give, since God loves a cheerful giver. Besides, God will give you his constantly overflowing kindness. Then, when you always have everything you need, you can do more and more good things. Scripture says, "The righteous person gives freely to the poor. His righteousness continues forever." God gives seed to the farmer and food to those who need to eat. God will also give you seed and multiply it. In your lives he will increase the things you do that have his approval. God will make you rich enough so that you can always be generous. Your generosity will produce thanksgiving to God because of us. What you do to serve others not only provides for the needs of God's people, but also produces more and more prayers of thanksgiving to God. (2 Cor. 9:6-12; God's Word to the Nations).

Jim M said:
Give my Christian nephew a million dollars and he would spend two million before sundown. He loves the prosperity teaching, but then he also loves the self-indulgence it offers him.

\o/

Then your nephew has not embraced the propserity message in its entirety. If you read the quotes by the proponents of this message that I present in response to Piper's distortion, you will see that these men dispute against the very attitude that your nephew has. Motives mean a lot to God and our motives determine what God does. We must first delight ourselves in the Lord before we can receive the desires of our hearts (Psalm 37:4)

JimB · Oct 14, 2005

victoryword said:
*****
Then your nephew has not embraced the propserity message in its entirety.
*****

Then you are saying that God only wants Christians who embrace the prosperity message in its entirety to be wealthy. Right? IOW, those who believe the right doctrine. Some Christians, I would submit ask and receive not, because they ask amiss, that they may consume it upon their lusts. Is that a fair statement?

\o/

BTW, Are you rich?

victoryword · Oct 14, 2005

Jim M said:
Then you are saying that God only wants Christians who embrace the prosperity message in its entirety to be wealthy. Right? IOW, those who believe the right doctrine. Some Christians, I would submit ask and receive not, because they ask amiss, that they may consume it upon their lusts. Is that a fair statement?

\o/

BTW, Are you rich?

Jim, why do you HAVE to twist my words when you know that is not what I meant? Do I do this to anyone else? You know that is NOT what I was saying. I was saying that your nephew has the wrong motives and I was referring to the very passage of Scripture that you quoted.

I only answered you because I thought your question was sincere. I am coming close to not responding to some posts any more because they are nothing more than insulting and show no Christian character. So don't twist my words like that again.

And yes, I am rich.

John Piper on the wealth-and-prosperity doctrine:

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