John MacArthur, please remove the plank from your eye

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What you describe would amount to a terrible management style.

It's a simple fact of life that you cannot do certain things at a job without being fired. So we don't do those things because we don't want to lose our jobs. Simple fact. You can ignore facts if you like but they exist non the less. I mean, do you run into an open field of thunderstorms? How about swimming in a pool full of sharks? You tell your kids not to play around power lines and or put their hands on a burning stove. No fear, right? This is the same thing with hell. There is a hell. If people do not repent, they will go to the place of torments. It's just reality.

MacArthur ignores the reality of the teachings of Jesus on being greatly rich upon this earth. Jesus basically said it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom. Not easy. All we can do is pray for MacArthur, and hope that he may change on this issue. For the moment he gives up in being rich, he will then be able to properly condemn other pastors who live an excessively rich lifestyle.

But that's not the only problem I have with MacArthur. Like I said before, I disagree with his view on salvation and his belief in Calvinism.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's a simple fact of life that you cannot do certain things at a job without being fired.

"Simple facts of life" are rarely so simple. Often, this kind of rhetoric is simply a way to avoid critical analysis.

Not all jobs involve direct interaction with an adversarial management. There's self-employment, gig work, worker-owned collectives, etc. What you are presenting is just a manifestation of a particular culturally constructed work ethic, not an immutable law of the universe. And that says nothing about the varying management styles within more traditional, hierarchical business organizations.

You tell your kids not to play around power lines and or put their hands on a burning stove. No fear, right? This is the same thing with hell. There is a hell. If people do not repent, they will go to the place of torments. It's just reality.

That doesn't offer a real moral basis for doing good. Avoiding punishment and doing good aren't the same thing.

Furthermore, not playing with powerlines involves a clear cause and effect relationship that are part of impersonal natural processes, not personal agency as implied in punishment (somebody chooses to enforce a perceived rule or norm). Lighting is only a kind of personal agency in the crudest and most primitive understandings of the world.
 
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"Simple facts of life" are rarely so simple. Often, this kind of rhetoric is simply a way to avoid critical analysis.

Not all jobs involve direct interaction with an adversarial management. There's self-employment, gig work, worker-owned collectives, etc. What you are presenting is just a manifestation of a particular culturally constructed work ethic, not an immutable law of the universe. And that says nothing about the varying management styles within more traditional, hierarchical business organizations.

Howevever, it is not easy for everyone to get the jobs you mentioned that pay well, and they are not in always known to the average individual. Most people work at regular jobs. So my point stands that there are lots of jobs whereby you can get fired for breaking the rules. I know. I am a blue-collar worker. I mean, you make it seem like no family can ever be on the streets without a job. I have seen it plenty of times. So the reality you paint is not the real world in which we live in. People can lose their jobs and they can be homeless, starving, and even get sick. So it seems to me like you want to bury your head in the sand to certain realities in life.

You said:
That doesn't offer a real moral basis for doing good. Avoiding punishment and doing good aren't the same thing.

Sure it is. Doing good to avoid punishment exists in our real world (of which you ignore). Many people do good so as to avoid punishment every day. People do not drive like maniacs on the highway (they are doing good in being a good driver) so as to avoid the punishment of an accident and in getting tickets, and or in going to court (paying fees).

Driving drunk can harm you and others.
Stealing at a job can get a person fired and possible jail time (which is not a pleasant place to be) if the thing stolen has extreme value (like say a diamond ring).

It's also a concept taught in the Bible, as well. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus even warns that various sins can lead to hellfire like looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-29), and in not helping the poor or the unfortunate in this life (See: Matthew 25:31-46). We learn in the story of the Rich-man and Lazarus that the rich-man who did not do good in helping the poor guy (Lazarus) at his gates was thrown into the place of torments (hell) (Luke 16:19-31). So his failure to do good led to punishment.

You said:
Furthermore, not playing with powerlines involves a clear cause and effect relationship that are part of impersonal natural processes, not personal agency as implied in punishment (somebody chooses to enforce a perceived rule or norm). Lighting is only a kind of personal agency in the crudest and most primitive understandings of the world.

God created the natural processes of this universe, but you fail to understand that God is in control of the forces of nature, and He is in control of life and death. So if a person is struck by lightning, it is God who has allowed it to happen. It is no accident or random occurrence. Nothing in life is random. But those who love God all things work together for good for them. So if any bad happens in the life of a believer it is for their benefit. Take for example chastisement of a believer. They are punished so that they may get back on the path in doing what is good or right. Same thing with dogs. If a dog is yelled at for pooping on the carpets, it can deter the animal in doing so again. With enough proper positive and negative re-enforcement, the animal learns to do what is good. Oh, and yes, there is a reward in doing good, too. When a person does good, they can be rewarded and not just so as to avoid punishment, too. There are perks in doing good. For believers, this is the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etc.; It is fellowship with the living God of the universe. A relationship that is founded on the truth of God's Word (the Bible).

If MacArhtur is indeed insanely wealthy and he is living that rich lifestyle as others claim: I imagine MacArthur does not take seriously the parts of the Bible that warn against the spiritual dangers of being rich under the New Covenant. He either chooses to not see them or he knows about such a truth, and he simply decides to do his own thing anyways. If he is super wealthy as men say, and he condemns others for prosperity, he is in a way being hypocritical because he no doubt believes he gained his wealth from God. But I wanted to take a step back and not condemn without really knowing the man personally. I do not reallly know with 100% certainty that he owns millions of dollars and he holds on to it and he goes to rich golf clubs that only the super rich can afford to attend. I don't know that for sure. Others could be trying to slander him. But what I do know is that even MacArthur does things out of fear of punishment on things in this life. It's not the kind of fear like fearing what man can do to us, but it is a fear of not wanting bad things to happen to us so that we can live quite lives in service to our Lord in peace and love and joy.
 
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To all:

So I wanted to officially retract my previous statements on condemning MacArthur in being filthy rich, etc.; It's not that I don't doubt the possibility that he may be super rich, but I simply do not know this fact for sure with 100% certainty. I don't know the man and his life personally. Others may be trying to slander him while others have latched on to that bandwagon as truth. I will try to reserve judgment of any individual unless there is clear evidence to say so otherwise (whereby everyone knows about such evidence). I say this on the slight off chance that folks may be trying to slander him falsely. Granted, I do not agree with his view of sin and salvation. I also do not agree with his acceptance of Calvinism (of which I find to be deplorable). But these things I know about him because he has openly promoted them. I can for all accounts judge him on these things that the Bible is clearly against - IMHO.

Peace, love, and blessings from the Lord Jesus Christ be unto you all (even if we may disagree strongly on the Bible).
 
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I believe it is good to not fall into the condemnation bandwagon.
While we can judge sins generally or a false belief system, to judge individuals can be a dangerous game because they are still alive to repent and they may do so shortly before they die.

“Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” (1 Corinthians 4:5).
 
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FireDragon76

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Howevever, it is not easy for everyone to get the jobs you mentioned that pay well, and they are not in always known to the average individual. Most people work at regular jobs. So my point stands that there are lots of jobs whereby you can get fired for breaking the rules. I know. I am a blue-collar worker. I mean, you make it seem like no family can ever be on the streets without a job. I have seen it plenty of times. So the reality you paint is not the real world in which we live in. People can lose their jobs and they can be homeless, starving, and even get sick. So it seems to me like you want to bury your head in the sand to certain realities in life.



Sure it is. Doing good to avoid punishment exists in our real world (of which you ignore). Many people do good so as to avoid punishment every day. People do not drive like maniacs on the highway (they are doing good in being a good driver) so as to avoid the punishment of an accident and in getting tickets, and or in going to court (paying fees).

Driving drunk can harm you and others.
Stealing at a job can get a person fired and possible jail time (which is not a pleasant place to be) if the thing stolen has extreme value (like say a diamond ring).

It's also a concept taught in the Bible, as well. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Jesus even warns that various sins can lead to hellfire like looking upon a woman in lust (Matthew 5:28-29), and in not helping the poor or the unfortunate in this life (See: Matthew 25:31-46). We learn in the story of the Rich-man and Lazarus that the rich-man who did not do good in helping the poor guy (Lazarus) at his gates was thrown into the place of torments (hell) (Luke 16:19-31). So his failure to do good led to punishment.



God created the natural processes of this universe, but you fail to understand that God is in control of the forces of nature, and He is in control of life and death. So if a person is struck by lightning, it is God who has allowed it to happen. It is no accident or random occurrence. Nothing in life is random. But those who love God all things work together for good for them. So if any bad happens in the life of a believer it is for their benefit. Take for example chastisement of a believer. They are punished so that they may get back on the path in doing what is good or right. Same thing with dogs. If a dog is yelled at for pooping on the carpets, it can deter the animal in doing so again. With enough proper positive and negative re-enforcement, the animal learns to do what is good. Oh, and yes, there is a reward in doing good, too. When a person does good, they can be rewarded and not just so as to avoid punishment, too. There are perks in doing good. For believers, this is the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, etc.; It is fellowship with the living God of the universe. A relationship that is founded on the truth of God's Word (the Bible).

If MacArhtur is indeed insanely wealthy and he is living that rich lifestyle as others claim: I imagine MacArthur does not take seriously the parts of the Bible that warn against the spiritual dangers of being rich under the New Covenant. He either chooses to not see them or he knows about such a truth, and he simply decides to do his own thing anyways. If he is super wealthy as men say, and he condemns others for prosperity, he is in a way being hypocritical because he no doubt believes he gained his wealth from God. But I wanted to take a step back and not condemn without really knowing the man personally. I do not reallly know with 100% certainty that he owns millions of dollars and he holds on to it and he goes to rich golf clubs that only the super rich can afford to attend. I don't know that for sure. Others could be trying to slander him. But what I do know is that even MacArthur does things out of fear of punishment on things in this life. It's not the kind of fear like fearing what man can do to us, but it is a fear of not wanting bad things to happen to us so that we can live quite lives in service to our Lord in peace and love and joy.

Your explanation doesn't exactly commend Christianity to me. Your explanation is weak on displaying coherent epistemology and ethics.
 
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Your explanation doesn't exactly commend Christianity to me. Your explanation is weak on displaying coherent epistemology and ethics.

I gave you lots of facts both in real life and in Scripture. It appears it is best we agree to disagree.

May you be blessed in the Lord.
 
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That verse is nonresponsive to this discussion. "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. "

This is talking about how to treat others. Someone who has lost his mind to the point that his drive to kill himself overpowers his incredibly strong innate instinct to self-preservation isn't responsible for what he does. That's mental illness/possession/ oppression....call it what you will and I'm sure it is case-dependent. But he is not a murderer.

If a person was mentally handicapped like this since birth then you may be right, but if they once had a normal mind, I would see the deterioration of their mind as a condemnation from God and not as some kind of random occurrence of life. God will hold people accountable for their actions. Just read and believe John 5:29.
 
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RestoreTheJoy

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If a person was mentally handicapped like this since birth then you may be right, but if they once had a normal mind, I would see the deterioration of their mind as a condemnation from God and not as some kind of random occurrence of life. God will hold people accountable for their actions. Just read and believe John 5:29.
Wow. What a way to blame the victim.

Maybe he opened the door, but be careful how you tread in this sort of blanket judgment of others. "Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted." Galatians 6:1

At any rate, it is NOT the unforgivable sin. Horrible people have told grieving relatives exactly this at funerals. I have seen it. Fortunately, I am well-versed enough in the Word to correct that nonsense.
 
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FireDragon76

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If a person was mentally handicapped like this since birth then you may be right, but if they once had a normal mind, I would see the deterioration of their mind as a condemnation from God and not as some kind of random occurrence of life.

Lovely. That confirms even more that you are dealing in the grossest of superstitions.
 
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Aaron112

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Wow. What a way to blame the victim.
okay, maybe no blame needed for anyone ? The victim, when one who dies eternally,
what difference does it make if there is ever any blame or not ? Is it right , even, to call them a victim ?
 
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Aaron112

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If a person was mentally handicapped like this since birth then you may be right, but if they once had a normal mind, I would see the deterioration of their mind as a condemnation from God and not as some kind of random occurrence of life. God will hold people accountable for their actions. Just read and believe John 5:29.
Deterioration of their mind perhaps,
or maybe worse of someone's spirit/soul when they have a heart full of perversion, or maybe even just to start inclined to perversion , then going that way on and on ?
 
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Hazelelponi

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If a person was mentally handicapped like this since birth then you may be right, but if they once had a normal mind, I would see the deterioration of their mind as a condemnation from God and not as some kind of random occurrence of life. God will hold people accountable for their actions. Just read and believe John 5:29.

God holds sinners accountable, but someone who's been in, for example, a car accident and lost many of their mental faculties, God does not judge unjustly but rather, justly and according to truth.

When bad things happen to someone it is not a specific judgement just because something bad happens to them.

That issue was addressed specifically by Jesus, as it was common back in Jesus' time to consider accidents as judgements of God upon those affected.

Jesus said that the rain falls and the sun shines on the just and unjust alike - in other words, stuff happens to us all, both the good and the bad.

Paul the Apostle also pointed out that when God's judging either nations or individuals, they are given over to their depravity.

So if you want to know who God is judging, look at those who are given over to their sins. America is a good current example, as a nation we are being judged by God, and we see it clearly through blatant sin run rampant...
 
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God holds sinners accountable, but someone who's been in, for example, a car accident and lost many of their mental faculties, God does not judge unjustly but rather, justly and according to truth.

When bad things happen to someone it is not a specific judgement just because something bad happens to them.

That issue was addressed specifically by Jesus, as it was common back in Jesus' time to consider accidents as judgements of God upon those affected.

Jesus said that the rain falls and the sun shines on the just and unjust alike - in other words, stuff happens to us all, both the good and the bad.

Paul the Apostle also pointed out that when God's judging either nations or individuals, they are given over to their depravity.

So if you want to know who God is judging, look at those who are given over to their sins. America is a good current example, as a nation we are being judged by God, and we see it clearly through blatant sin run rampant...
Blindness which is a result of sin fallen world was not due to a specific sin but to magnify Christ’s glory in Him to heal the person. Job suffered many things but it was a test of his faith. His life did not end in a bad state that we are aware of. Yes, Christians can be persecuted and even killed. This is a part of suffering for Christ and being like Christ. But it is different if one’s life is taken by mental disease or illness. Deuteronomy 28:28 sheds light on this. It basically says God will bring madness of mental confusion upon a person. This is not doubt because of their sin or rebellion against God. In other words, we would need an example in Scripture where God looked favorably upon a believer even if He allowed them to fall into being mentally ill to their death.

Oh, and yes, God does send rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. We see it every day. There are many unbelievers who live comfortably today and have many blessings that they are ungrateful to God for. This is grace. No doubt. But there comes a time when they will not live forever and if they refuse to repent, and or turn to the Lord, things will not go well for them in the end (unfortunately).
 
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Aaron112

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The sin of blindness
Was this clarified earlier in thread ?
Blindness (physical blindness) is not a sin.
Spiritual blindness might be a result of a sin, and might be definitely sin, I haven't thought about this vector.
 
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Aaron112

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In other words, we would need an example in Scripture where God looked favorably upon a believer even if He allowed them to fall into being mentally ill to their death.
Do you know of anyone in Scripture besides Lot (sodom and gomorrah)
who was driven all the way or partly to madness/insanity/extremely vexed ?
 
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Was this clarified earlier in thread ?
Blindness (physical blindness) is not a sin.
My apologies. I did not clarify that well. I re-edited my post.

It now says, “Blindness which is a result of sin fallen world was not due to a specific sin but to magnify Christ’s glory in Him to heal the person.”

But those who are spiritually blind are blind because of their physical sins.
 
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Aaron112

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But those who are spiritually blind are blind because of their physical sins.
What happened to Scripture: "... born dead in sin and trespasses..." (I don't remember exactly, but people basically are born spiritually blind, and usually stay blind, according to Scripture.)
 
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Do you know of anyone in Scripture besides Lot (sodom and gomorrah)
who was driven all the way or partly to madness/insanity/extremely vexed ?
In the book of Daniel, it is recounted that King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon experiences a period of mental distress, leading to his isolation for seven years, during which he ultimately acknowledges the supreme power of the one God.

King Saul's intense jealousy towards King David triggered a series of events that ultimately led to his disobedience to God. As a consequence, God withdrew His Spirit from Saul, resulting in a tragic ending where Saul took his own life. This could be possibly categorized as madness or mentally ill mind because of his extremely wrong sinful choices.

As for Lot: To my knowledge, while he did go through hardships, there is no mention of him going insane or becoming mentally ill. He may have used poor judgment, but that is not exactly equate with mental illness.
 
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