John MacArthur explains easy-believism, grace-only, etc.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, as far as I know, he is only drastically OFF re:
the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the related
9 spiritual power gifts of 1 Corinthians 12.
I.E. IMO, he was (is?) a cessationist ... bad mistake!
But, absolutely nuttin' to do with the topic of this thread.

I think that when he is teaching Biblical doctrinal knowledge, he is no threat to the devil because the devil knows about that already and he knows that just knowing the doctrines of the Bible does not take people out his kingdom of darkness. But people who are baptised with the Spirit, using the spiritual gifts including speaking in tongues and prophesying, are causing the devil to lose people out of his kingdom of darkness in great numbers, and so they are a real threat to him. So, he sees that people like Dr MacArthur believe, on the basis of half a verse in 1 Corinthians 13 that these gifts are no longer for today, so he puts a lying spirit into their mouths when they give their teaching about the gifts of the Spirit and the speaking in tongues. The devil gives them a good view of the excesses of the Charismatic movement, much of which he has instigated himself to discredit the movement, and then the lying spirit tells these teachers that the whole movement is demonized and that it is important for them to teach as many people as they can. The purpose of the devil is to poison the minds of as many as he can against the baptism with the Spirit the modern use of the Spiritual gifts, especially the gift of tongues because he knows that if people believed in and used the gift of tongues in the way it was designed, much harm could be done to the devil's purposes in the world.

I would treat MacArthur's teaching, and the teaching of many like him, in the same way I would treat rat poison. Keep right away from it so that I don't ingest any of the poison by accident.

 

[BCsenior]

For me it was even longer, years in fact before I could even intellectually grasp the idea of there being a God. Decades perhaps before I grasped that I had the Spirit within.

Aaaaaaaaah ... no, I don't think so! ... 2 reasons ...

One cannot be born-again if one does not believe in God.

When one is born-again, He comes to indwell us to teach us all things (spiritual) John 14 ... IMO, He's not that ineffective that you could block Him out of your life for all of that time!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I believe Macarthur is a cessationist. He's also put out some weird comment on Jesus's blood not being important but rather that Jesus death is what saved us??

He's also a bit vain in that he spent millions building a library honoring himself at his campus, but other than that he's pretty clean. I would place him as a stereo-typical Baptist type of Pastor.

His comment about the blood of Jesus is very concerning. This is because the shed blood of Jesus is central to the gospel and also central to our salvation. It is not just the death of Jesus that saved us. It was not His death that caused Him to sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. It was the expectation that He going to have the whole weight to the wrath of God upon Him for the sin of the world.

In order to save us from God's wrath, Jesus had to go to heaven and offer His own blood to the Father in the heavenly holy of holies. It was the acceptance of the blood of Jesus by the Father, that enabled Him to be able to give those who put their faith in Christ the free pardon. This is what makes the shedding of Christ's blood absolutely essential and central to the gospel of Christ. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22).

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Aaaaaaaaah ... no, I don't think so!
He comes to indwell us to teach us all things (spiritual).
IMO, He's not that ineffective that you could block Him
out of your life for all of that time!

She has through time been teaching me. Indeed, I currently hold a BRE and MDiv and hope to eventually go for my DMin. When I was first saved, I was unable to intellectually grasp God's existence as I was but a baby. Thankfully, my parents took my siblings and I when we were kids to Sunday School so we could learn about God and his love.

 

[Romans 8]

Aaaaaaaaah ... no, I don't think so!
He comes to indwell us to teach us all things (spiritual)
John 14 ... IMO, He's not that ineffective that you
could block Him out of your life for all of that time!

Do you think regeneration then is possible without the second baptism? And is the second baptism for the gifts only then? There's also the third baptism of "fire". I think fire is for cleansing us thoroughly and preparing us for higher duties.

 

[Romans 8]

His comment about the blood of Jesus is very concerning. This is because the shed blood of Jesus is central to the gospel and also central to our salvation. It is not just the death of Jesus that saved us. It was not His death that caused Him to sweat blood in the Garden of Gethsemane. It was the expectation that He going to have the whole weight to the wrath of God upon Him for the sin of the world.

In order to save us from God's wrath, Jesus had to go to heaven and offer His own blood to the Father in the heavenly holy of holies. It was the acceptance of the blood of Jesus by the Father, that enabled Him to be able to give those who put their faith in Christ the free pardon. This is what makes the shedding of Christ's blood absolutely essential and central to the gospel of Christ. "Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin" (Hebrews 9:22).

Thanks for explaining this. And this is why I don't trust most of the "celebs" in the spotlight.

 

[BCsenior]

I would treat MacArthur's teaching, and the teaching of many like him, in the same way I would treat rat poison. Keep right away from it so that I don't ingest any of the poison by accident.

Apparently you know of someone who knows everything!
I.E. he/she is correct on all of his theological doctrine!
Gee, I'm jealous BIG time ... of him/her and you both.
Actually, you must be talkin' 'bout God.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc. are called antinomianianism.
This is the notion that a one-time justification saves … apart from sanctification.

From “The Gospel According to Jesus”
(Expanded Edition), John MacArthur, 1994, Zondervan

There are some today who ... “teach that Scripture promises salvation to anyone who simply believes the facts about Christ and claims eternal life. There need be no turning from sin, no resulting change in lifestyle, no commitment – not even a willingness to yield to Christ’s lordship. Those things, they say, amount to human works, which corrupt grace and have nothing to do with faith. The fallout of such thinking is a deficient doctrine of salvation. It is justification without sanctification, and its impact on the church has been catastrophic … many sincerely believe they are saved, but their lives are utterly barren of any verifying fruit.”

“Salvation is solely by grace through faith (Ephes. 2:8) … But it means nothing if we begin with a misunderstanding of grace or a faulty definition of faith. God’s grace is not a static attribute whereby he passively accepts hardened, unrepentant sinners. Grace does not change a person’s standing before God, yet leave his character untouched … Grace is the power of God to fulfil our New Covenant duties … Clearly, grace does not grant permission to live in the flesh; it supplies power to live in the Spirit.”

“Salvation is by grace though faith … But the only possible response to God’s grace is a broken humility that causes the sinner to turn from his old life to Christ. The evidence of such a turning is the willingness to submit and obey.”

“Faith, like grace, is not static … It is inseparable from repentance, surrender, and a supernatural longing to obey … the heart of the error of those who reject lordship salvation … they stumble over the twin truths that salvation is a gift, yet it costs everything.”

“What does it mean to believe in Christ? … Real faith
has at its heart a willingness to obey. … Thus the test of true faith is this: Does it produce obedience? If not, it is not saving faith. Disobedience is unbelief. Real faith obeys.”

“It is meaningless to expound on grace to someone who does not know the divine command for righteousness. … You cannot preach a gospel of grace to someone who has not heard that God requires obedience and punishes disobedience.”

“A righteous, holy, pure God cannot tolerate evil. He will not save those who try to come to him harboring sin.”

“… the gospel according to Jesus is as much a call to forsake sin as it is a summons to faith.”

“They have been deceived by a corrupted gospel. They have been told that faith alone will save them, but they neither understand nor possess real faith. The faith they are relying on is only intellectual acquiescence to a set of facts. It will not save.”

There are a few more quotes in post #2 ...

Amen! Before God is kind, merciful, and loving, He is Holy, Righteous, and Just. I guarantee you that God loved every soul that was ever cast into Hell.

 

[BCsenior]

Amen! Before God is kind, merciful, and loving, He is Holy, Righteous, and Just. I guarantee you that God loved every soul that was ever cast into Hell.

Hey, lots of spiritual wisdom goin' on where y'all are!

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

“Scripture often equates faith with obedience
(John 3:36, Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26,
2 Thessalonians 1:8).”

“Thus faith is inseparable from obedience … That is why faith and obedience are so closely linked throughout Scripture. Clearly, the biblical concept of faith must lead to obedience.”

“So the faithful (believing) are also faithful (obedient)
… Righteous living is an inevitable by-product of real faith (Romans 10:10). … The state of mind that refuses obedience is pure and simple unbelief.”

“Do not separate justification and sanctification so radically that you allow for one without the other. This is the error of antinomianism. God will not justify those he does not sanctify. God does not offer justification as a stand-alone means of salvation. … Justification cannot be isolated and made to represent the sum of God’s saving work. Yet that is exactly the error that is rampant in contemporary theology.”

“… those who comfort themselves with the promise of justification while living in wanton unrighteousness are thereby shown that theirs is a false security.”

“The message of Jesus cannot be made to accommodate any kind of cheap grace or easy-believism.
The kingdom is not for people who want Jesus without any change in their lives.”

“No passage in all of Scripture attacks modern-day easy-believism with more force than Matthew 7:13-14. …
it amounts to the Savior’s own presentation of the way
of salvation … these closing verses are pure gospel,
with as pointed an invitation as has ever been issued.”

“Jesus spoke the words of Matthew 7:21-23
as a warning to people who think they are saved,
but do not live in obedience to God.”

“Clearly no past experience – not even prophesying, casting out demons, or doing signs and wonders –
can be viewed as evidence of salvation apart from a life of obedience … I fear that multitudes who now fill church pews … will be among those turned away because they did not do the will of the Father.”

“The Bible teaches clearly that the evidence of God’s work in a life is the inevitable fruit of transformed behavior (1 John 3:10). Faith that does not result
in righteous living is dead and cannot save
(James 2:14-17).”

“The validation of salvation is a life of obedience.
It is the only possible proof that a person really knows Jesus Christ.”

 

[BCsenior]

Do you think regeneration then is possible without the second baptism?

Answer is in the 2 Holy Spirit baptisms thread.

 

[Thess]

So, when the Holy Spirit breathes into a person receiving Christ, they are born again. This is not the baptism with the Spirit, because baptism speaks of either immersion or something being poured over them from above. When the already born again disciples received the baptism with the Spirit on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Spirit came from above and settled on them with what looked like flames of fire. Then they were filled with the Spirit and spoke with tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This is very interesting. Let me know if I'm on track: is this similar, or the same as the Leaders, Judges, Kings and even Prophets of the Old Testament could be filled/led by the Spirit of the Lord, but not born again? Very, very interesting.

 

[Thess]

I think this makes more sense, than a practise run as Pawson suggests.

My question though is how do we know if we're born again? From what I described, does this qualify? To recap, I believe, repented, and was water baptized. I have not yet received the Holy Spirit. Am I born again or do I need the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

You [must] have the faith of Abraham.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Talking about cheap grace, I get frustrated with people who actually plan to sin, excusing themselves with the idea that God's grace will cover it. This I get from family members, one of which is an ordained minister. It drives me nuts.

 

[Thess]

Talking about cheap grace, I get frustrated with people who actually plan to sin, excusing themselves with the idea that God's grace will cover it. This I get from family members, one of which is an ordained minister. It drives me nuts.

Pft....that was me!!!! In fact, that's everyone I've ever known. My old best friends mom was the worship leader, but also shagging the 21 year old from Asia in her husbands bed....and got to keep her job at the church. And then there's me, meeting a woman on the first date where we both want intimacy, but she says she wants to wait so that I'm not "like the others". So we waited until Saturday night, which we surely did. Sunday morning I met her at her church and watched her flail her arms in the air as she led us to worship our Holy, Righteous and Powerful God.

I stood there, in the stinkin' pew just shocked and stunned over what I was doing....and what she was doing. I couldn't even sing. I've had other experiences in other churches as well....at least women in three different churches.

Folks, if you don't think this is happening in your church, or has recently, you'd be extremely lucky. This is why it is critical to ensure that we know if our brothers and sisters are actually saved. If we don't do our duty, which is to find out if the brethren around us are saved, they may be living this kind of secret life as well. We must help each other, so we must establish relationship....we must ask sometimes hard questions.

 

[Daniel9v9]

The friction between antinomianism on one hand and the confusion of justification and sanctification on the other is the Arminian system running out into its logical conclusion. While there can be an understanding of "hyper-grace" within the Arminian and other synergistic systems, it's a concept that is not transferable to Lutheranism, to which I hold.

In the Lutheran system, justification is a complete work and sanctification follows as the fruit of justification. Sanctification does not increase or sustain justification. In simple terms: We are saved from God from beginning to end. We must do good works, but they have no bearing on our salvation. While synergism says "You must do good works, or else....", Lutheranism (and Calvinism) says "You must do good works."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is very interesting. Let me know if I'm on track: is this similar, or the same as the Leaders, Judges, Kings and even Prophets of the Old Testament could be filled/led by the Spirit of the Lord, but not born again? Very, very interesting.

No one could born again until Jesus had gone to the cross, shed His blood, had the wrath of God poured out Him, then raised from the dead.

The Old Testament saints looked in faith to Christ in the future. So, once Jesus was risen from the dead, they became born again. We don't know how this actually happened. We are not told. There is something significant with Enoch; and with Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus. We know that anyone who exercises faith in Christ whether looking forward to the future resurrection of Christ, or looking back, then they are saved by grace through faith. There are some mysteries in this. We have to accept it that a person's faith is counted for righteousness.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Apparently you know of someone who knows everything!
I.E. he/she is correct on all of his theological doctrine!
Gee, I'm jealous BIG time ... of him/her and you both.
Actually, you must be talkin' 'bout God.

There is a difference between someone teaching imperfect doctrine because they still have stuff to learn and for the Holy Spirit to teach them; and a person who has been in ministry for over 40 years deliberately teaching falsehood out of falsehood and inspired by a lying spirit.

It is not hard to compare Dr MacArthur's teaching about the gift of tongues and the Corinthian church, with what Paul actually says in 1 Corinthians. The differences are very clear. Otherwise Dr MacArthur has never really studied 1 Corinthians to any depth, or he is deliberately ignoring many things Paul has said to try and prove his point.

 

[dad]

There are some today who ... “teach that Scripture promises salvation to anyone who simply believes the facts about Christ and claims eternal life.

Is that bad?

There need be no turning from sin, no resulting change in lifestyle, no commitment – not even a willingness to yield to Christ’s lordship.

Many people confuse Christ's lordship with playing church. If we are sincere in doing as Jesus asked, then He will come in. Then He works from the inside out to help us change. The commitment to let Him in will result in helping us with life and works.

Those things, they say, amount to human works, which corrupt grace and have nothing to do with faith.

In their place, (a result of God in us) works are great. Him working in us. Having some church or outfit misuse this to try to get folks working for them and their church or organization which is defined as what works are all about is another matter.

The fallout of such thinking is a deficient doctrine of salvation. It is justification without sanctification,

Not at all, it is realizing being justified and sanctified means God in our lives.

and its impact on the church has been catastrophic …

Ha...there we go.

many sincerely believe they are saved, but their lives are utterly barren of any verifying fruit.”

That depends what you think fruit looks like. If someone thinks all fruitful people work in their church or another...sorry.

“Salvation is solely by grace through faith (Ephes. 2:8) … But it means nothing if we begin with a misunderstanding of grace or a faulty definition of faith. God’s grace is not a static attribute whereby he passively accepts hardened, unrepentant sinners.

That is why we repent first and sincerely ask. Then He starts to work.

Grace does not change a person’s standing before God, yet leave his character untouched

Maybe worry about your own character? If people were genuinely saved, then they are better than they were.

… Grace is the power of God to fulfil our New Covenant duties

Grace is the gift received at Christ's expense. It is not a duty. Nor is is earned by duties or retrained by duties.

… Clearly, grace does not grant permission to live in the flesh; it supplies power to live in the Spirit.”

Who says anyone actually saved wanted to live in the flesh?? Who is the judge?

“Salvation is by grace though faith … But the only possible response to God’s grace is a broken humility that causes the sinner to turn from his old life to Christ. The evidence of such a turning is the willingness to submit and obey.”

He even helps make us more willing once saved. But some people think submitting means submitting to their church or cause.

“Faith, like grace, is not static … It is inseparable from repentance, surrender, and a supernatural longing to obey … the heart of the error of those who reject lordship salvation … they stumble over the twin truths that salvation is a gift, yet it costs everything.”

It cost Jesus everything. It is free for the asking. We could never ever begin to pay the price. I am surprised someone with a show and church with grace in the name is so ignorant of what grace is all about!

“What does it mean to believe in Christ? … Real faith
has at its heart a willingness to obey. … Thus the test of true faith is this: Does it produce obedience? If not, it is not saving faith. Disobedience is unbelief. Real faith obeys.”

If a saved person needs lessons in obeying, Jesus teaches them from inside. Some religious people misuse the term disobedience to mean anything that doesn't fit their little paradigm of supposed goodness.

“It is meaningless to expound on grace to someone who does not know the divine command for righteousness. … You cannot preach a gospel of grace to someone who has not heard that God requires obedience and punishes disobedience.”

He also gives eternal life to those that ask. Who are you to judge who is obedient? God is working on those He lives in and saved. His judgments are better than gold so we should thank Him for whacking us in the right direction sometimes for our benefit.

“A righteous, holy, pure God cannot tolerate evil. He will not save those who try to come to him harboring sin.”

“… the gospel according to Jesus is as much a call to forsake sin as it is a summons to faith.”

If they ask for forgiveness from sin that is forsaking it. Let's not pretend you are perfect here and have so perfectly forsaken all sin that you are some sinless saint that is perfect.

“They have been deceived by a corrupted gospel. They have been told that faith alone will save them, but they neither understand nor possess real faith. The faith they are relying on is only intellectual acquiescence to a set of facts. It will not save.”

If they were sincere in coming to Jesus, He will help them. Nothing to do with intellectual anything. Their faith will grow. They are in God's hands and He will take care of them and lead them like a Shepherd and correct them if needed all the days of their lives.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Apparently you know of someone who knows everything!
I.E. he/she is correct on all of his theological doctrine!
Gee, I'm jealous BIG time ... of him/her and you both.
Actually, you must be talkin' 'bout God.

There are many problems with MacArthur. While he may believe in Lordship Salvation, he said once in a Cessationist video that those who profess against Once Saved Always Saved are blaspheming God or something to that effect. As others have stated, he denies the blood atonement. However, it is a big problem to deny the blood of Jesus for salvation. 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as he is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin (Also see Romans 3:25 and John 6:53). So without the cleansing blood of Jesus, we would not be saved. Denying that is denying an essential part of the gospel message. Also, he is a Calvinist. Calvinists believe that God elects some to be saved and other to not be saved. This is basically saying that no person is actually truly responsible for their salvation but God alone. That God forces some to be saved and He forces others to not be saved. This can lead a person to have an apathetic approach towards God. God will change them if it is His will that they are Elect. The only thing I agree with him on is Cessationism. But I had to stop watching his videos because he condemns anyone who is against OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved). So he is not the kind of person that you think he is. His net worth is almost 13 million and he has an annual salary of 160,000. 1 Timothy 6 says we are to FLEE in chasing after riches and we are to instead chase after righteousness.