John 8:58 - "Before Abraham was, I am"

[daq]

let me make it simple for you. You believe Jesus is Diety, I do not believe Jesus is Diety. lthat means we are not in agreement.

[size=+1]And to simplify even further: If Yeshua is not deity you are eating scapegoat.[/size]

 

[Jonathan95]

[size=+1]When you sit down to a meal and have lamb do you worship it? Do you pray to it? Or do you CONSUME ALL OF IT as commanded; both the goodness and sweetness with the bitter herbs? If I put on the mind of Christ, and he is the Head of the body of the great congregation, do I then worship my new Head or does my new Head point my worship to the Father as it should be? (and by the Way this means one must first lose his own head before he will truly make Christ the Head, Hosea 1:11, Revelation 20:4). Yeshua is the only HOLY Manna sent down from the Father; Yeshua is the fulfillment of all typology and prophecy because all of it speaks of him: yet he was not ashamed to call us BRETHREN. If I then make Yeshua the Head of everything that was once me, after losing my own head, then do I not bow the knee to him and his doctrines, teachings, and parables, in all things? Yes I do, however, my true worship is only unto the Father, IN THE SON, for the Father seeks such to worship him in Spirit and in Truth this Way.[/size]

Trinity makes it possible for God the father to be glorified through Yahshua. Yahshua is constantly glorified etc in Book of Revelation.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Wow. We can't compare a sacrifical lamb like that to Yeshua as our sacrifical lamb. He bought us free with his precious blood etc etc.

Revelation 5:11-13
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

 

[Ronald]

Nowhere in this passage do we see a claim to be God. Nor do we see any parallel to Exodus 3:14. While this does admit that Christ existed before Abraham, such a claim does not make him God himself by default.

It was a clear implication that pointed to Ex.3:14 and that is why it infuriated the Pharisees, He was putting himself equal with God.

He spoke to Moses. He did not answer Moses question in elaborate details. "I Am" was a reference to Ex. 3:14, it's obvious, He was saying that he is the God who later would complete the I AM with more details such as: I am the way, the truth and the life ...; I am the resurrection and the life; I am the doorway; I am good shepherd; I am the vine and you are the branches; I am he; I am the bread of life; I am the gate; etc. All the "I Am's" in the book of John were a descriptive completion of that question that Moses asked. A shadow of the Lord was presented in the Old Testament and then God showed up, became flesh and dwelt among us.
Only God can wash away the sins of the world. Only God can have authority of heaven and earth, it requires omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence.
He is the Creator! Make no mistake about this!
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being". John 1:3
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For [ by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."Col. 1:15-17

Remember he did not come to parade himself as God, he did not want men to comprehend this, it wasn't his intention to blow trumpets and state I am God, worship Me. He came in humility as a suffering servant, our priest in human form to offer a sacrifice once and for all. When He returns, there will be a firm understanding and every knee will bow to him.

"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," Phil. 2:6

 

[Jonathan95]

Remember he did not come to parade himself as God, he did not want men to comprehend this, it wasn't his intention to blow trumpets and state I am God, worship Me. He came in humility as a suffering servant, our priest in human form to offer a sacrifice once and for all. When He returns, there will be a firm understanding and every knee will bow to him.

"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped," Phil. 2:6

Yes, Amen. I heard Satan tempted him to enter his Royal Form in the desert, when he tempted him to fall, and let the angels catch him for example. Yes, the angels would do this of course, if he did that.

 

[daq]

Trinity makes it possible for God the father to be glorified through Yahshua. Yahshua is constantly glorified etc in Book of Revelation.

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Wow. We can't compare a sacrifical lamb like that to Yeshua as our sacrifical lamb. He bought us free with his precious blood etc etc.

Revelation 5:11-13
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

[SIZE=+1]Greetings from the Seven Spirits which are before the Throne:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Revelation 1:4 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]4. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Of the Seven Stars, Seven Lamps of Fire, Seven Horns, Seven Eyes, and Seven Spirits of the Theou; which of these make up the trinity which you propose? And, thus, which of the Seven are left out of your proposed trinity? Can you name them?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Revelation 3:1 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]1. And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Revelation 4:5 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]5. And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Revelation 5:6 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]6. And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Zechariah 6:12-13 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]12. And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]13. Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Zechariah 3:8-9 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]UPON THE FOUNDATION CORNER-STONE ARE SEVEN EYES ~[/SIZE]

 

[daq]

Wow. We can't compare a sacrifical lamb like that to Yeshua as our sacrifical lamb. He bought us free with his precious blood etc etc.

[size=+1]Exodus 12:5-11 KJV
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's Passover.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

John 6:48-56 KJV
48. I am that bread of life.
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 6:61-63 KJV
61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickened; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

THEREFORE ~

Luke 6:46-48 KJV
46. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48. He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

And upon that Foundation-Stone-Rock are Seven Eyes ~
Why then do you call him Lord and Master if you do not what he says?
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.[/size]

 

[2ducklow]

who died on the cross? God or a man?

 

[daq]

who died on the cross? God or a man?

[SIZE=+1]If you are asking me then my answer is with the Scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Take your pick from the following passage:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Acts 3:15 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]1) Yeshua the Son of the Theou[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]2) The Holy One[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]3) The Just One[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]4) The Prince of Life[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Yet it was certainly not the Father himself which was on the Cross, and I never said that it was, nor have I stated that Yeshua was 'God' (YHWH or the Theou) as you seem to have assumed. We simply have two separate understandings of what deity or divinity means in its proper contexts: Are not two tsippowr-sparrows sold for a farthing? And yet the one from them not shall fall over the earth [earthen vessel] without the Father. Therefore, because of Leviticus 14 Torah, one may understand which is which, and which is the greater, (certainly The Dove).[/SIZE]

 

[hedrick]

I believe that our Lord, Jesus Christ, is the image of God (2 Corinthians 4:4, Colossians 1:15, *citing verses for the sake of other readers*) and is called God for this reason. I believe that the Father alone is the "true God."

This is certainly defensible. However Jesus isn't saying that he is in the same position as those in Ps 82:6. Rather the argument is: If even normal people can be referred to as gods, then I, who am the true Son of God, surely can be.

Jesus is normally not called God in the NT. But there are hints of it, e.g. in John 20:28. I agree with you that it makes sense to say that he is called God because the fulness of God is in him.

But note that this isn't all that far from the orthodox position. The idea behind Chalcedon is that there isn't a second god. Rather, the one God has taken this human mind, soul, and body to appear among us. And in the later councils it is made clear that it's not just the pieces of a human but that there's an actual human will who takes actual human actions.

That's a description "from above." But if you take the other point of view, and look at things with respect to the human, then the orthodox position says that this human is God only because the Logos has taken him (and in fact created him) to be his human presence.

The main issue, I think, is that the real hard-core orthodox position would not speak of Jesus the man at all. It sees this human life as really the life of the Logos. There is no actual human being, not because there's anything missing from a human being, but because the Logos is the true subject of all of Jesus' actions and experiences. This is sometimes called "anhypostasia," and is an implication of the fact that there's only one person (hypostasis) in Christ, which is the person of the Logos.

But I think it's possible to understand Chalcedon in a somewhat more Biblical sense, and say that when we say there's only one hypostasis, we're using hypostasis in a philosophical sense, not as the exact equivalent of the English "person." In fact most of the attributes that we think of as part of a person are associated with the nature in Christology. E.g. a central part of a person is the will, but in Christ there are two wills. So even with anhypostasia, while there may not be a human "person" there's a human will.

So I tend to understand anhypostasia as a more abstract statement, based on explanations from people like Thomas. There's nothing missing from Jesus' nature that would make a normal human person. The only reason we don't say that Jesus is a separate person is because the term "person" implied to them an entity that is in some sense independent. (Thomas says "complete.") But Jesus was created from the beginning to be God's human presence. So he is not a self-contained, independent entity the way we are, and thus he doesn't get counted as a "person." But if you use the normal English meanings of words, he certainly is a person. Viewed strictly from that human point of view, he is God in the sense that the Logos has taken (indeed created) this particular human to be his human nature. More Biblically, he created this particular human to carry the fulness of God.

The question comes down to whether it makes sense to see the orthodox statement that this human is God's human nature as being the same as the Biblical statement that in Jesus God's fulness dwells. I think this does make sense. And surely the people who wrote the creeds intended it that way.

I think that may be fairly close to your position, but maintains some contact with the historical confessions.

 

[hedrick]

who died on the cross? God or a man?

Both. Certainly Jesus was a human being. But God took this human to himself to be God's own presence in human life. I believe that God actually went through the crucifixion, through Jesus.

I mean that whole point of Chalcedon is that we have to understand everything about Christ both as human and as God's.

 

[Jonathan95]

[size=+1]Exodus 12:5-11 KJV
5. Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats:
6. And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.
7. And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
8. And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.
9. Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof.
10. And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire.
11. And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the Lord's Passover.

1 Corinthians 5:7-8
7. Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us:
8. Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

John 6:48-56 KJV
48. I am that bread of life.
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 6:61-63 KJV
61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickened; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

THEREFORE ~

Luke 6:46-48 KJV
46. And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47. Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48. He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

And upon that Foundation-Stone-Rock are Seven Eyes ~
Why then do you call him Lord and Master if you do not what he says?
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.[/size]

How do you know I don't do what he says? I have eaten his flesh and drank his blood.

I meant you can't compare a sacrifical lamb with Yeshua like that, in that way which you did. Yeshua is worthy of our worship.

 

[daq]

How do you know I don't do what he says? I have eaten his flesh and drank his blood.

I meant you can't compare a sacrifical lamb with Yeshua like that, in that way which you did. Yeshua is worthy of our worship.

[size=+1]And I meant exactly what the Scripture says: ''Christ our Passover is SACRIFICED for us''. It is therefore the Scripture which compares Christ Yeshua in that way. Everything that a man puts before his eyes is spiritual food and enters into the heart, mind, and and soul because the eye is the lamp which lightens the inside of the body according to the Master. ''If therefore the light that is in you be darkness: How great is that darkness!'' and ''Thou shalt not eat things having been sacrificed to idols'' (Acts 15, Rev. 2:14, Rev. 2:20). Think that this commandment concerns only physical sacrifices and meats for the belly of the flesh? Whatsoever you put before your eyes you partake of and do eat.[/size]

 

[Jonathan95]

[size=+1]And I meant exactly what the Scripture says: ''Christ our Passover is SACRIFICED for us''. It is therefore the Scripture which compares Christ Yeshua in that way.

I know he's our passover sacrificed for us.

Well it seemed to me that you compared worshipping Yeshua to a sacrifical lamb, as if you would worship a literal sacrifical lamb.

Yeshua is worthy of our worship, praises etc, because he died and rose again. He conquered death. He is the way, the truth and the life.

Colossians 1:14-18
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Everything that a man puts before his eyes is spiritual food and enters into the heart, mind, and and soul because the eye is the lamp which lightens the inside of the body according to the Master. ''If therefore the light that is in you be darkness: How great is that darkness!''

I don't understand why you brought these things up. But...

Matt 6:22-23 ...Yes, the eyes are like the windows of our soul. Either lets darkness in our lets light out. Though I wouldn't call everything you look at as food. For example, if I see a girl in school in immodest apparel, it's not food for my soul but FILTH. Well, not sure if it's filth if my eyes turn that way, or if I look for a while. Well, I barely look for a while unless I get really tempted.

and ''Thou shalt not eat things having been sacrificed to idols'' (Acts 15, Rev. 2:14, Rev. 2:20).
Think that this commandment concerns only physical sacrifices and meats for the belly of the flesh? Whatsoever you put before your eyes you partake of and do eat.

[/size]

I don't understand what you mean with physical sacrifices.

I don't understand why you brought this up.

 

[daq]

I know he's our passover sacrificed for us.

Well it seemed to me that you compared worshipping Yeshua to a sacrifical lamb, as if you would worship a literal sacrifical lamb.

Yeshua is worthy of our worship, praises etc, because he died and rose again. He conquered death. He is the way, the truth and the life.

Colossians 1:14-18
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.





I don't understand why you brought these things up. But...

Matt 6:22-23 ...Yes, the eyes are like the windows of our soul. Either lets darkness in our lets light out. Though I wouldn't call everything you look at as food. For example, if I see a girl in school in immodest apparel, it's not food for my soul but FILTH. Well, not sure if it's filth if my eyes turn that way, or if I look for a while. Well, I barely look for a while unless I get really tempted.




I don't understand what you mean with physical sacrifices.

I don't understand why you brought this up.

[size=+1]QUOTE:]''Well it seemed to me that you compared worshipping Yeshua to a sacrifical lamb, as if you would worship a literal sacrifical lamb''...[END QUOTE.

The statement quoted immediately above is the very reason why I brought those things up; for you seem to think that I speak of physical things when I do not, (and neither does the Scripture). Neither did I say that I worship Yeshua if only you had understood what has been said, (Yeshua is the Head of the Body-Congregation, Captain of the host of YHWH, and was not ashamed to call us BRETHREN). However, this is now getting way off topic so I will post the following, which answers to the ''scapegoat'' comments also, (which are spirit) and leave off here:

1 Corinthians 10:20-21 KJV
20. But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Where does Paul get this from? Torah ~

Leviticus 16:21-26 KJV
21. And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22. And the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] in the wilderness.
23. And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
24. And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
25. And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
26. And he that let go the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] for the scapegoat [HSN#5799 `Aza'zel] shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Original Strong's Ref. #5799
Romanized `aza'zel
Pronounced az-aw-zale'
from HSN5795 and HSN0235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:
KJV--scapegoat.

Leviticus 16:26 ASV (American Standard Version)
26. And he that letteth go the goat for Azazel shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.

In the very next passage we find the meaning of the sa`iyr-goat for Azazel ~

Leviticus 17:1-7 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3. What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5. To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Every sacrifice is to be brought unto the Door of Tabernacle of the Congregation before YHWH; and Yeshua himself is the Door. Therefore if it be not approved according to the doctrines, parables, and teachings of Yeshua which are found in the Gospel accounts; then it is a sacrifice unto devil-goats, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr].[/size]

 

[Jonathan95]

[size=+1]QUOTE:]''Well it seemed to me that you compared worshipping Yeshua to a sacrifical lamb, as if you would worship a literal sacrifical lamb''...[END QUOTE.

The statement quoted immediately above is the very reason why I brought those things up; for you seem to think that I speak of physical things when I do not, (and neither does the Scripture). Neither did I say that I worship Yeshua if only you had understood what has been said, (Yeshua is the Head of the Body-Congregation, Captain of the host of YHWH, and was not ashamed to call us BRETHREN). However, this is now getting way off topic so I will post the following, which answers to the ''scapegoat'' comments also, (which are spirit) and leave off here:

1 Corinthians 10:20-21 KJV
20. But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Where does Paul get this from? Torah ~

Leviticus 16:21-26 KJV
21. And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
22. And the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] in the wilderness.
23. And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
24. And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.
25. And the fat of the sin offering shall he burn upon the altar.
26. And he that let go the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] for the scapegoat [HSN#5799 `Aza'zel] shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward come into the camp.

Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Original Strong's Ref. #5799
Romanized `aza'zel
Pronounced az-aw-zale'
from HSN5795 and HSN0235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:
KJV--scapegoat.

Leviticus 16:26 ASV (American Standard Version)
26. And he that letteth go the goat for Azazel shall wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in water, and afterward he shall come into the camp.

In the very next passage we find the meaning of the sa`iyr-goat for Azazel ~

Leviticus 17:1-7 KJV
1. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2. Speak unto Aaron, and unto his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them; This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, saying,
3. What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5. To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.

Every sacrifice is to be brought unto the Door of Tabernacle of the Congregation before YHWH; and Yeshua himself is the Door. Therefore if it be not approved according to the doctrines, parables, and teachings of Yeshua which are found in the Gospel accounts; then it is a sacrifice unto devil-goats, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr].[/size]

SO when I worship Yeshua, I'm worshipping a devil? Do you know many many people are healed from cancer etc by worshipping Yeshua? Freed from demons? Is it a work of Satan? Or is it the Holy Spirit working through the music.

 

[2ducklow]

[SIZE=+1]If you are asking me then my answer is with the Scripture.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Take your pick from the following passage:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Acts 3:15 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]12. And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]13. The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]14. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]15. And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]1) Yeshua the Son of the Theou[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]2) The Holy One[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]3) The Just One[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]4) The Prince of Life[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Yet it was certainly not the Father himself which was on the Cross, and I never said that it was, nor have I stated that Yeshua was 'God' (YHWH or the Theou) as you seem to have assumed. We simply have two separate understandings of what deity or divinity means in its proper contexts: Are not two tsippowr-sparrows sold for a farthing? And yet the one from them not shall fall over the earth [earthen vessel] without the Father. Therefore, because of Leviticus 14 Torah, one may understand which is which, and which is the greater, (certainly The Dove).[/SIZE]

So you believe Jesus is diety but not God.

de·i·ty

   
noun, plural de·i·ties. 1. a god or goddess.

2. divine character or nature, especially that of the Supreme Being; divinity.

3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.

4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.

5. the Deity, God; Supreme Being

Deity | Define Deity at Dictionary.com

which definition of diety are you using, 1,2,3 , or 4? you've said he's not the supereme being so which diety is he? A person revered AS a god? number 4? apparently. Or do you have your own special definition for the word deity?

 

[2ducklow]

Both. Certainly Jesus was a human being. But God took this human to himself to be God's own presence in human life. I believe that God actually went through the crucifixion, through Jesus.

I mean that whole point of Chalcedon is that we have to understand everything about Christ both as human and as God's.

If God and the man Jesus died on the cross who resurrected them/him? I assume you mean them is a him.God ressurected God who died on the cross? and there is ony one God right?

I don't understand why what some council in 450 AD, or thereabouts, said matters about anything. Unless of course one is Catholic. which obviously I'm not.

 

[daq]

[size=+1]Hi Jonathan95: NOWHERE did I suggest that Yeshua is a devil. The scapegoat was not sacrificed but rather set free into the wilderness and therefore neither was its blood used in any ceremony. Are you then suggesting, (by your assumptions concerning my comments) that Yeshua is your scapegoat for your sins? Nothing could be further from the truth if that is what you have been taught. Please read more carefully. [/size]

So you believe Jesus is diety but not God.
[/color]
Deity | Define Deity at Dictionary.com

which definition of diety are you using, 1,2,3 , or 4? you've said he's not the supereme being so which diety is he? A person revered AS a god? number 4? apparently. Or do you have your own special definition for the word deity?

[size=+1]John 10:33-36 KJV
33. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:33-36 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
33. Apekrithesan auto hoi Ioudaioi, ''{*} Peri kalouergou ou lithazomen se alla peri blasfemias, kai hotisu anthropos on poieis seauton Theon!''
34. Apekrithe autois ho Iesous, ''Ouk estingegrammenon en to nomo humon hoti: ''Ego eipa, theoi este?''
35. Ei ekeinous eipen ''theous'' pros hous hologos tou Theou egeneto, kai ou dunatai luthenai hegrafe,
36. hon ho Pater hegiasen kai apesteilen eiston kosmon humeis legete hoti ''Blasfemeis,'' hotieipon: "Huios tou Theou eimi?''

Original Strong's Ref. #2316
Romanized theos
Pronounced theh'-os
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with GSN3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:
KJV--X exceeding, God, god[-ly, -ward].

Hence the basis for a difference between theos and the Theou … [/size]

 

[2ducklow]

[SIZE=+1]Hi Jonathan95: NOWHERE did I suggest that Yeshua is a devil. The scapegoat was not sacrificed but rather set free into the wilderness and therefore neither was its blood used in any ceremony. Are you then suggesting, (by your assumptions concerning my comments) that Yeshua is your scapegoat for your sins? Nothing could be further from the truth if that is what you have been taught. Please read more carefully. [/SIZE]


[SIZE=+1]John 10:33-36 KJV[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]33. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]John 10:33-36 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]33. Apekrithesan auto hoi Ioudaioi, ''{*} Peri kalouergou ou lithazomen se alla peri blasfemias, kai hotisu anthropos on poieis seauton Theon!''[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]34. Apekrithe autois ho Iesous, ''Ouk estingegrammenon en to nomo humon hoti: ''Ego eipa, theoi este?''[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]35. Ei ekeinous eipen ''theous'' pros hous hologos tou Theou egeneto, kai ou dunatai luthenai hegrafe,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]36. hon ho Pater hegiasen kai apesteilen eiston kosmon humeis legete hoti ''Blasfemeis,'' hotieipon: "Huios tou Theou eimi?''[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Original Strong's Ref. #2316[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Romanized theos[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Pronounced theh'-os[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with GSN3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]KJV--X exceeding, God, god[-ly, -ward].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]Hence the basis for a difference between theos and the Theou … [/SIZE]

What does the word deity mean?

 

[daq]

What does the word deity mean?

[size=+1]That is the point: 'theos' has more than one single restrictive 'boxed-in' meaning by the ways in which it is employed through the Scripture. Perhaps the point may be better understood by way of spirit-breath-wind: Ruwach-Pneuma [Spirit] are both in Hebrew, and in Greek, the equivalents of spirit-breath-wind-breeze and therefore Spoken Word. I do not myself believe that man is a 'tripartite' being as most modern theology now teaches, (because it cannot be proven with Scripture unless one twists the meaning of 'nshamah' in Genesis 2:7). Thus man does have 'spirit' yet that spirit can be transient in its nature like breath, wind, or breeze. The spirit of a created man is nothing more than the so-called 'air about him' in terms of entity. The life entity of a man is the living nephesh-soul, which resides in the blood, according to the Scripture. However, Yeshua is different than created man because he is the Spirit which quickens; the life-giving quickening-Spirit of Life:

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

We are all offspring of the Creator because he SPOKE and it was so, (see Acts 14:22-28). However, the Word which the Father spoke in the beginning is Yeshua the Word. Therefore Yeshua is indeed divine-deity Spirit, (entity) which did from the beginning proceed from the side of the Father as the Scripture states. Mankind is also created in the image of 'Elohiym, as the Scripture states; yet we are not said to be created with ruwach-Spirit in the beginning. This then implies that spirit is something 'acquired' along the way; for the good, or for the evil, as in the 'prince of the power of the air' or 'old man sin nature' which all true believers previously served according to the Scripture. Mankind in the beginning were not created except as earthen vessels containing chay-nephesh, (a living soul) formed of the dust of the 'adamah-soil. Therefore anyone claiming to have the Spirit of Christ will have THE SCRIPTURE because it is the Spirit-Breath-Wind of Christ; both spotless, and without blemish. And the only way for one to have the Spirit-Breath-Wind of Christ in them is to consume the holy-deity-manna-Word which came down from heaven; (was sent from the Father) and the holy-deity-manna-Word which came down from heaven clearly states the following:

''The true worshippers shall worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth!''
And ~ ''I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I''
Therefore the Head of the Body clearly tells the Congregation to worship the Father.[/size]