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John 8:58 and Trinitarians.

2ducklow

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Does NOT answer my question!
sure it does. John 1 is about Jesus being the christ, the son of god, that is the correct interpretation of john 1. your interpretation of john 1. is that Jesus is god, that is an incorrect and false interpretation. so john 1. when interpreted correctly, as I do, fits in with john28.31. thus john 1. begins by showing us how Jesus is the son of god, how he is the christ, and john 28.31 ends the book by stating thatthat is why john wrote the book of john.


deralter said:
There are NO, ZERO, NONE credible arguments against "monogenese theos."
your own quote below lists at least 2 credible arguments.
I put in purple ( in your quote above) a couple of the reasons that many bibles go with only begotten son. there are other ones not touched on in this quote of yours.

(NKJV) John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him.]

(ASV) John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

(Young) John 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare
 
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2ducklow

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Why should I be so revealing when you don't bother to address the parts of my posts that are more troubling to your position?
trying to focus. make it simple so we can focus on one thing instead of all over the map. deal with this one, and I'll bring up another of yours or my points and we can then focus on that. or you can just ignore this and stop the conversation, machs nichts to me.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1] sure it does. John 1 is about Jesus being the christ, the son of god, that is the correct interpretation of john 1. your interpretation of john 1. is that Jesus is god, that is an incorrect and false interpretation.[/size]

Scripture citations, such as "John 1.1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.11,12,13,14,etc" without the actual scripture does NOT answer anything. Making the same ol,' lame ol' assertions without a meaningful discussion does NOT make them true. I see an empty assertion here

so john 1. when interpreted correctly, as I do, fits in with john28.31. thus john 1. begins by showing us how Jesus is the son of god, how he is the christ, and john 28.31 ends the book by stating thatthat is why john wrote the book of john.

Please show me where John stated or implied that he did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31? Show me where John stated or implied that any other disciple did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31?
[SIZE=-1] your own quote below lists at least 2 credible arguments.

I put in purple ( in your quote above) a couple of the reasons that many bibles go with only begotten son. there are other ones not touched on in this quote of yours.

NKJV, ASV, Young, all based on the KJV. No 19th or 20th century Bible translator used KJV Elizabethan language, e.g. "hath." Are there any modern language translations which use the translation "only begotten son" in John 1:18?[/SIZE]
 
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Zebra1552

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No. You can answer my points first rather than ignoring them this time around.
 
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2ducklow

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deralter said:
Please show me where John stated or implied that he did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31? Show me where John stated or implied that any other disciple did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31

saying anything in john means Jesus is god is incompatible with john20.31. Jesus being god is incompatible with Jesus being the son of god. (you can't be your own daddy)



deralter said:
NKJV, ASV, Young, all based on the KJV. No 19th or 20th century Bible translator used KJV Elizabethan language, e.g. "hath." Are there any modern language translations which use the translation "only begotten son" in John 1:18?

here's some more
(douay Rheims)

Joh 1:18No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(world english)Joh 1:18No one has seen God at any time. The only conceived Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

(TEV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

(CEV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

(Wey NT) John 1:18 No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.

(Holman NT) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son -- the One who is at the Father’s side -- He has revealed Him.

also here are some other reasons for the reading only son or only begotten son.

http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Is_Jesus_God_in_John_1.18.pdf
 
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ittarter

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Interesting interpretation. Let me chew on it for a while.

You said Jesus is god incarnate, that is the same thing as saying Jesus is god. besides every trinitarian i've ever run into says Jesus is god.
I've run into many that have a problem with that phrasing, because it can lead to so many misunderstandings. Geez, it's just a predicative phrase, it could mean a dozen different things. Given the centuries and endless literature of Christian reflection on the subject, maybe it would pay to get a bit more specific in what we say, hmm?

you said Jesus is god incarnate, i paraphrased it as you saying Jesus is god, and you make a big deal about it as if i totally misrerpesented what you said. that is ridiculous.
And now you're the one making the big deal out of something. If I think "Jesus is God incarnate" is different from "Jesus is God," the correct way to proceed, if you wish to be polite, is not to assume they're the same, but rather:
1. Point out why they are not the same, or even better,
2. Ask me what difference I see in them.
These are basic etiquette and debate skills. Ask around.
 
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2ducklow

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i never accused you of saying that Jesus is god.
Saying that Jesus is god doesnt get to the point however. Saying Jesus is god is like saying George is king, or alfred is king. there are lots of kings in the world, and there are lots of gods in the world. some people have carved rocks for gods. The real question is if Jesus is god is he YHWH? IF he is YHWH then that means he is a spirit since YHWH is a spirit. That would mean that flesh is spirit since Jesus is flesh. So to get to the heart of the matter one must say if Jesus is the omnipresent spirit YHWH god, or is he some other god, or is he not god. those are the ony 3 choices I see. but since to say that flesh is spirit is ridiculous in everyones eyes the way around it is to refuse to say which god Jesus is, which most everyone who believes he is god does. And you , by saying that you cannot say if Jesus is god, you have in effect steped out of the problem of deciding if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god. IT's not that it's too simplistic to say if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god. it's impossible to explain the contadiction taht saying Jesus is god or Jesus is the ominpresnent spirit YHWH god results in. so you have in effect divorced yourself from dealing with that problem and justify it by saying words to the effect 'Oh it's to simplistic to say Jesus is god"
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]saying anything in john means Jesus is god is incompatible with john20.31. Jesus being god is incompatible with Jesus being the son of god. (you can't be your own daddy)[/SIZE]

I know what your assumptions/presuppositions are and I have long since informed you that your unsupported opinion of anything is irrelevant. Thus your opinion of what is or is not compatible with anything is equally irrelevant.

[SIZE="-1"]here's some more

Somewhat interesting but ignores the fact that overwhelming recent scholarship has determined that "monogenes" does NOT mean "begotten" but "unique" etc.

What we got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you can't reach, that is they just don't listen when you talk reasonable so you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it, well he gets it, and I don't like it any better than you men.

This a random copy/paste from some unknown dood online. The views in this piece of writing are of no more value than the opinion of any random person on the street.
1. Manuscript (MS) attestation for monogenes theos is mostly [Mostly, but not exclusively, therefore NOT convincing, DA !] in only one of the five MS families—Alexandrian—but ho monogenes huios is widespread in all MS families.
2. During the ante-Nicene era, Alexandria, Egypt, was the center in the Roman Empire of belief that Jesus was fully God. [No evidence that this view was not held elsewhere, DA !] Consequently, non-professional scribes [NO evidence that scribes were not professional, DA !] living in Alexandria may have [Speculation, NOT evidenceDA !] purposely changed huios to theos due to their Christology.
3. The visible Jesus being God is incompatible with no human ever seeing God. [Ignores the words of Jesus in John 15:24, DA !]
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.​
4. Monogenes theos does not appear anywhere else in the entire NT.
5. Monogenes theos “in the bosom of the Father” is strange and nowhere else in the NT. [Both 4 & 5 are irrelevant, many things only occur one time in scripture, DA !]
6. Monogenes theos is too developed as a theological concept to occur this early. [Assumes John wrote early in the ministry of Jesus, DA !]
7. Monogenes theos is incompatible with the purpose of this gospel (John 20.31). [Irrelevant. Nothing in John precludes him from proving more than he stated in 20:31, DA !]

Reasons for ho mongenes huios being correct in John 1.18 are as follows:
1. Monogenes huios conforms to Johannine usage (John 3.16, 18; 1 John 4.9). [Yes but irrelevant, no definite exclusion shown, DA !]
2. Theos is likely a scribal error [Speculation, NOT evidence, DA !] due to the similarity in abbreviations of it and huios.
3. A scribe could mistakenly [Speculation, NOT evidence, DA !] have substituted theos for huios due to the immediately preceding proximity of theou.
4. Being “in the bosom of the Father” is a Semitic idiom [NO evidence, DA !] reflecting the child-father relationship, suggesting huios. The Son in the Father links to the repeated Father-Son motif and their mutual indwelling (John 10.38; 14.10-11, 20).
5. A corollary Johannine theme is that the Son declares, explains, or makes the Father known by speaking and acting on his behalf (John 3.11-13; 5.19; 14.9-11; 15.15). [Corollary is not exclusive, DA !]

In conclusion, the arguments are about evenly divided for either variant. But the following point is decisive: if John 1.1c, 5.18, 10.30-38, and 20.28 are interpreted as not calling Jesus theos (“God”), then John 1.18 cannot be linked to any corresponding text in this gospel. [Circular argument, DA !] And linkage is the prologue’s purpose. Since ho monogenes huios clearly links to John 3.16 and v. 18, the authentic Greek text of John 1.18 most likely is not monogenes theos but ho monogenes huios, so that it does not call Jesus “God.”

http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Is_Jesus_God_in_John_1.18.pdf

What the unknown writer considers "most likely" is speculation NOT evidence.[/SIZE]
 
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Zebra1552

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No. You can answer my points first rather than ignoring them this time around.
Why do you refuse to engage my points, 2ducklow? Are you afraid of my answers? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the points I brought up, and you seem to be keeping up just fine with other users. Why am I different? What makes me worthy of ignoring?
 
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2ducklow

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Why do you refuse to engage my points, 2ducklow? Are you afraid of my answers? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the points I brought up, and you seem to be keeping up just fine with other users. Why am I different? What makes me worthy of ignoring?
i told you, i want to focus on one thing at a time with you. you weren't open to that.
 
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2ducklow

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I know what your assumptions/presuppositions are and I have long since informed you that your unsupported opinion of anything is irrelevant. Thus your opinion of what is or is not compatible with anything is equally irrelevant.
let's take the 'the word was with god' portion of john 1.1

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now the Greek word translated with is pros, which means unto or towards. Bible translators translate it wrong to support the trinity concept that Jesus is the word and the word was with god, but the meaning is that the word points us towards god. And Jesus being figuratively the word in that he is the fulfillment of the word, and in that he spoke the word that his father gave him, points us towards god, thus my interpretation or opinion liines up with the stated prupose of the book of john as szstated in john 20.28. your interpretation or opinion of 'the word was god" is that the word is a sentient being or a person of god, that is/was with god. thus your interpretation or opinon as to what
the word was with/towards god does not line up with the stated purpose of the book of john whioch is to show us tthat Jesus is the christ, the son of god. I could go into detailed explanations thusly with all those verses. you seem to thing that onlly you are allowed to have an opinon or that you have no opinions your interpretation is the word of god. that''s not true. your interpertations are not the word of god they are just youropinons,.
the writer listed the reasons for why it is a difficult verse to decide which is the correct reading, as your source stated. your source only listed about two reasons for the difficulty with that verse, my source listed other reasons. So you think there is a textual problem but noone knows what the textual problem is? that's what your comments suggest. tip toe through the tulips and pretend like threres no problems with the text, everybody is lieing right?
 
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Zebra1552

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i told you, i want to focus on one thing at a time with you. you weren't open to that.
Not when you don't do the same with others. If you want to focus on one thing just with me, that raises all sorts of red flags to what your motives are for doing so. If you do it with everyone, I wouldn't care. You're singling me out, and I don't like that. If you have a problem with that boundary, tough.
 
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Der Alte

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You want to accuse someone of lying! Here is my source again. Let us see if "noone knows what the textual problem is?"
 
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2ducklow

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You want to accuse someone of lying! Here is my source again. Let us see if "noone knows what the textual problem is?"
Here's what you said
deralter said:
Mostly, but not exclusively, therefore NOT convincing, DA !
your source considers it significant so guess your source is adood source too. you better find another non dood source cause your source you've just trashed, and lauded.

you need to look for a non dood source.
 
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2ducklow

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i din't single you out i did t he same thing with der alter
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE="-1"]2 reasons don't make for a notoriously difficult reason. he just didn't list but a couple.[/SIZE]

"2 reasons?" I counted at least 4, and highlighted them in blue. There may be more. You got a problem take it up with the NET publishers. Don't waste everybody's time with copy/pastes from Ned Nobody.
 
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Zebra1552

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Wow... with one other person. So you're singling TWO people out. There are plenty of examples withing this thread of you addressing more than one issue in a single post. If you have such a problem with addressing multiple points in one post, then post multiple responses.
 
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ittarter

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i never accused you of saying that Jesus is god.

But here's you admitting it earlier...
you said Jesus is god incarnate, i paraphrased it as you saying Jesus is god
So I don't feel the force behind your denial.

Yes, I think we are all assuming that when we talk of God, in this specific context, we are speaking monotheistically and thus refer to YHWH.
you have in effect steped out of the problem of deciding if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god.
Not at all. I have simply assumed a monotheistic stance for the whole of this conversation, since the New Testament (the literary body that is most directly relevant to our discussion) itself assumes a stolidly monotheistic stance. But this is really a moot point, so let's move on to your actual argument.

IF he is YHWH then that means he is a spirit since YHWH is a spirit. That would mean that flesh is spirit since Jesus is flesh.
Is Jesus ONLY flesh? Obviously not. Is he flesh AND spirit? It seems so. Thus, we affirm that YHWH is spirit (not "a spirit") but deny that it says anywhere in the Bible that YHWH is NOT and can NEVER be spirit and flesh. Unless you can point me to something in the Bible that makes that claim, your purported contradiction falls apart.

Well, to hope to convince you to rethink this claim, let me direct you to part of the first verse of John 1:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.
We read here that God's word was WITH God and WAS God. However, according to your rules of interpreting predicative phrases, this a contradiction, since nothing can be with something and BE that something at the same time.

I'm not saying that I understand the intricate nature of the incarnation. What I'm trying to show is that all of your arguments fall flat, because even if we choose to rule out the possibility of a simple identification -- Jesus IS Yhwh -- we are still left with a myriad of possibities that have been, thus far, unexplored, and still meaningfully locate the nature of deity within the flesh of a single member of humanity, in a much more integrated and objective sense than the way in which the Holy Spirit indwells God's faithful community.
 
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2ducklow

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"2 reasons?" I counted at least 4, and highlighted them in blue. There may be more. You got a problem take it up with the NET publishers. Don't waste everybody's time with copy/pastes from Ned Nobody.
hummmmmm, the guy seems right on, i'm gonna check out who he is if i can. whaddaya know i found it.

http://servetustheevangelical.com/authors_quest_for_real_jesus_3.html

seems to be an interesting bloke, some say he is James White.
 
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2ducklow

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But here's you admitting it earlier...
So I don't feel the force behind your denial.
I had assumed at that time that you were correct, latter on i checked back and discovered that I never accused you of saying Jesus is god.
pretty vague stuff.
you are correct.if something is with something it can't be the thing it's with. prob. is, for you that is, that god never said 'the word was with god, he said the word was towards god." contradictions are to you like deep truths too deep to fathom, but to me they are just that contradictions and as such proof that you are wrong.

It doesn't say with it says unto or towards , the greek word is pros, and pros means unto or towards. bible translators just change it to what suits their doctrine here.Bible translators change preposistions willy nilly to whatever suits their interpretation.
just gobbeldy goop to me. perhaps if you defined what you mean by nature, i might be able to better make heads or tails of it. See god is a spirit, but a nature is not a spirit a nature is not a flesh,as is commonly thought in trinitarian circles.
 
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