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2ducklow

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Does NOT answer my question!
sure it does. John 1 is about Jesus being the christ, the son of god, that is the correct interpretation of john 1. your interpretation of john 1. is that Jesus is god, that is an incorrect and false interpretation. so john 1. when interpreted correctly, as I do, fits in with john28.31. thus john 1. begins by showing us how Jesus is the son of god, how he is the christ, and john 28.31 ends the book by stating thatthat is why john wrote the book of john.


deralter said:
There are NO, ZERO, NONE credible arguments against "monogenese theos."
your own quote below lists at least 2 credible arguments.
deralter said:
NET notes 45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo", “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh" Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

tn Or “The unique one.” For the meaning of μονογενής (monogenh") see the note on “one and only” in 1:14.

46tn Grk “in the bosom of” (an idiom for closeness or nearness; cf. L&N 34.18; BDAG 556 s.v. κόλπος 1).

I put in purple ( in your quote above) a couple of the reasons that many bibles go with only begotten son. there are other ones not touched on in this quote of yours.

(NKJV) John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him.]

(ASV) John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

(Young) John 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare
 
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2ducklow

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Why should I be so revealing when you don't bother to address the parts of my posts that are more troubling to your position?
trying to focus. make it simple so we can focus on one thing instead of all over the map. deal with this one, and I'll bring up another of yours or my points and we can then focus on that. or you can just ignore this and stop the conversation, machs nichts to me.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1] sure it does. John 1 is about Jesus being the christ, the son of god, that is the correct interpretation of john 1. your interpretation of john 1. is that Jesus is god, that is an incorrect and false interpretation.[/size]

Scripture citations, such as "John 1.1, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.11,12,13,14,etc" without the actual scripture does NOT answer anything. Making the same ol,' lame ol' assertions without a meaningful discussion does NOT make them true. I see an empty assertion here

so john 1. when interpreted correctly, as I do, fits in with john28.31. thus john 1. begins by showing us how Jesus is the son of god, how he is the christ, and john 28.31 ends the book by stating thatthat is why john wrote the book of john.

Please show me where John stated or implied that he did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31? Show me where John stated or implied that any other disciple did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31?
[SIZE=-1] your own quote below lists at least 2 credible arguments.

I put in purple ( in your quote above) a couple of the reasons that many bibles go with only begotten son. there are other ones not touched on in this quote of yours.


(NKJV) John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,[/B] who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared [Him.]

(ASV) John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

(Young) John 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare

NKJV, ASV, Young, all based on the KJV. No 19th or 20th century Bible translator used KJV Elizabethan language, e.g. "hath." Are there any modern language translations which use the translation "only begotten son" in John 1:18?[/SIZE]
 
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Zebra1552

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trying to focus. make it simple so we can focus on one thing instead of all over the map. deal with this one, and I'll bring up another of yours or my points and we can then focus on that. or you can just ignore this and stop the conversation, machs nichts to me.
No. You can answer my points first rather than ignoring them this time around.
 
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2ducklow

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deralter said:
Please show me where John stated or implied that he did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31? Show me where John stated or implied that any other disciple did not, could not prove more than his statement in 28:31

saying anything in john means Jesus is god is incompatible with john20.31. Jesus being god is incompatible with Jesus being the son of god. (you can't be your own daddy)



deralter said:
NKJV, ASV, Young, all based on the KJV. No 19th or 20th century Bible translator used KJV Elizabethan language, e.g. "hath." Are there any modern language translations which use the translation "only begotten son" in John 1:18?

here's some more
(douay Rheims)

Joh 1:18No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(world english)Joh 1:18No one has seen God at any time. The only conceived Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

(TEV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

(CEV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

(Wey NT) John 1:18 No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.

(Holman NT) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son -- the One who is at the Father’s side -- He has revealed Him.

also here are some other reasons for the reading only son or only begotten son.
1. Manuscript (MS) attestation for monogenes theos is mostly in only one of the five MS
families—Alexandrian—but ho monogenes huios is widespread in all MS families.
2. During the ante-Nicene era, Alexandria, Egypt, was the center in the Roman Empire
of belief that Jesus was fully God. Consequently, non-professional scribes living in
Alexandria may have purposely changed huios to theos due to their Christology.
3. The visible Jesus being God is incompatible with no human ever seeing God.
4. Monogenes theos does not appear anywhere else in the entire NT.
5. Monogenes theos “in the bosom of the Father” is strange and nowhere else in the NT.
6. Monogenes theos is too developed as a theological concept to occur this early.
7. Monogenes theos is incompatible with the purpose of this gospel (John 20.31).
Reasons for ho mongenes huios being correct in John 1.18 are as follows:
1. Monogenes huios conforms to Johannine usage (John 3.16, 18; 1 John 4.9).
2. Theos is likely a scribal error due to the similarity in abbreviations of it and huios.
3. A scribe could mistakenly have substituted theos for huios due to the immediately
preceding proximity of theou.
4. Being “in the bosom of the Father” is a Semitic idiom reflecting the child-father
relationship, suggesting huios. The Son in the Father links to the repeated Father-Son
motif and their mutual indwelling (John 10.38; 14.10-11, 20).
5. A corollary Johannine theme is that the Son declares, explains, or makes the Father
known by speaking and acting on his behalf (John 3.11-13; 5.19; 14.9-11; 15.15).




In conclusion, the arguments are about evenly divided for either variant. But the
following point is decisive: if John 1.1c, 5.18, 10.30-38, and 20.28 are interpreted as not
calling Jesus theos (“God”), then John 1.18 cannot be linked to any corresponding text in
this gospel. And linkage is the prologue’s purpose. Since ho monogenes huios clearly
links to John 3.16 and v. 18, the authentic Greek text of John 1.18 most likely is not
monogenes theos but ho monogenes huios, so that it does not call Jesus “God.”

http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Is_Jesus_God_in_John_1.18.pdf
 
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ittarter

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It's not 'the word' it's all of God's words. the word is figurative for god's words.
flesh is figurative for Jesus, Jesus is more than just his flesh, flesh is a metonymy for Jesus .
John 1.14 states specifically how the word became flesh, by the Father begatting Jesus, not by some person of god incarnating as flesh, as a fetus, or however trinitarians choose to view it. In fact t o say that god incarnated himself into flesh contradicts several scriputres that say god begat Jesus. begatting is something totaally different than incarnatinig.
Jesus is the word, but he is also called a door, a good shepard a lamp, bread from heaven, and numerous other things, all of which are figurative. think about it, Jesus spoke only what his father, the one and only true god, gave him to speak, therefore he was always speaking the word, the word of god, so in that f igurative sense he is also the word of god, not only because he is the fulfillment of the word but also because he was always (hyperbole) going around speaking what god his father gave him to speak. Scripture specifically states these undeniable facts.

Interesting interpretation. Let me chew on it for a while.

You said Jesus is god incarnate, that is the same thing as saying Jesus is god. besides every trinitarian i've ever run into says Jesus is god.
I've run into many that have a problem with that phrasing, because it can lead to so many misunderstandings. Geez, it's just a predicative phrase, it could mean a dozen different things. Given the centuries and endless literature of Christian reflection on the subject, maybe it would pay to get a bit more specific in what we say, hmm?

you said Jesus is god incarnate, i paraphrased it as you saying Jesus is god, and you make a big deal about it as if i totally misrerpesented what you said. that is ridiculous.
And now you're the one making the big deal out of something. If I think "Jesus is God incarnate" is different from "Jesus is God," the correct way to proceed, if you wish to be polite, is not to assume they're the same, but rather:
1. Point out why they are not the same, or even better,
2. Ask me what difference I see in them.
These are basic etiquette and debate skills. Ask around.
 
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2ducklow

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Interesting interpretation. Let me chew on it for a while.

I've run into many that have a problem with that phrasing, because it can lead to so many misunderstandings. Geez, it's just a predicative phrase, it could mean a dozen different things. Given the centuries and endless literature of Christian reflection on the subject, maybe it would pay to get a bit more specific in what we say, hmm?And now you're the one making the big deal out of something.

If I think "Jesus is God incarnate" is different from "Jesus is God," the correct way to proceed, if you wish to be polite, is not to assume they're the same, but rather:
1. Point out why they are not the same, or even better,
2. Ask me what difference I see in them.
These are basic etiquette and debate skills. Ask around.
i never accused you of saying that Jesus is god.
Saying that Jesus is god doesnt get to the point however. Saying Jesus is god is like saying George is king, or alfred is king. there are lots of kings in the world, and there are lots of gods in the world. some people have carved rocks for gods. The real question is if Jesus is god is he YHWH? IF he is YHWH then that means he is a spirit since YHWH is a spirit. That would mean that flesh is spirit since Jesus is flesh. So to get to the heart of the matter one must say if Jesus is the omnipresent spirit YHWH god, or is he some other god, or is he not god. those are the ony 3 choices I see. but since to say that flesh is spirit is ridiculous in everyones eyes the way around it is to refuse to say which god Jesus is, which most everyone who believes he is god does. And you , by saying that you cannot say if Jesus is god, you have in effect steped out of the problem of deciding if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god. IT's not that it's too simplistic to say if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god. it's impossible to explain the contadiction taht saying Jesus is god or Jesus is the ominpresnent spirit YHWH god results in. so you have in effect divorced yourself from dealing with that problem and justify it by saying words to the effect 'Oh it's to simplistic to say Jesus is god"
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1]saying anything in john means Jesus is god is incompatible with john20.31. Jesus being god is incompatible with Jesus being the son of god. (you can't be your own daddy)[/SIZE]

I know what your assumptions/presuppositions are and I have long since informed you that your unsupported opinion of anything is irrelevant. Thus your opinion of what is or is not compatible with anything is equally irrelevant.

[SIZE="-1"]here's some more

(douay Rheims)

Joh 1:18No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

(world english)Joh 1:18No one has seen God at any time. The only conceived Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.

(TEV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

(CEV) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is truly God and is closest to the Father, has shown us what God is like.

(Wey NT) John 1:18 No human eye has ever seen God: the only Son, who is in the Father's bosom--He has made Him known.

(Holman NT) John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son -- the One who is at the Father’s side -- He has revealed Him.

[SIZE="-1"]also here are some other reasons for the reading only son or only begotten son.[/SIZE]

Somewhat interesting but ignores the fact that overwhelming recent scholarship has determined that "monogenes" does NOT mean "begotten" but "unique" etc.

What we got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you can't reach, that is they just don't listen when you talk reasonable so you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it, well he gets it, and I don't like it any better than you men.

This a random copy/paste from some unknown dood online. The views in this piece of writing are of no more value than the opinion of any random person on the street.
1. Manuscript (MS) attestation for monogenes theos is mostly [Mostly, but not exclusively, therefore NOT convincing, DA !] in only one of the five MS families—Alexandrian—but ho monogenes huios is widespread in all MS families.
2. During the ante-Nicene era, Alexandria, Egypt, was the center in the Roman Empire of belief that Jesus was fully God. [No evidence that this view was not held elsewhere, DA !] Consequently, non-professional scribes [NO evidence that scribes were not professional, DA !] living in Alexandria may have [Speculation, NOT evidenceDA !] purposely changed huios to theos due to their Christology.
3. The visible Jesus being God is incompatible with no human ever seeing God. [Ignores the words of Jesus in John 15:24, DA !]
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.​
4. Monogenes theos does not appear anywhere else in the entire NT.
5. Monogenes theos “in the bosom of the Father” is strange and nowhere else in the NT. [Both 4 & 5 are irrelevant, many things only occur one time in scripture, DA !]
6. Monogenes theos is too developed as a theological concept to occur this early. [Assumes John wrote early in the ministry of Jesus, DA !]
7. Monogenes theos is incompatible with the purpose of this gospel (John 20.31). [Irrelevant. Nothing in John precludes him from proving more than he stated in 20:31, DA !]

Reasons for ho mongenes huios being correct in John 1.18 are as follows:
1. Monogenes huios conforms to Johannine usage (John 3.16, 18; 1 John 4.9). [Yes but irrelevant, no definite exclusion shown, DA !]
2. Theos is likely a scribal error [Speculation, NOT evidence, DA !] due to the similarity in abbreviations of it and huios.
3. A scribe could mistakenly [Speculation, NOT evidence, DA !] have substituted theos for huios due to the immediately preceding proximity of theou.
4. Being “in the bosom of the Father” is a Semitic idiom [NO evidence, DA !] reflecting the child-father relationship, suggesting huios. The Son in the Father links to the repeated Father-Son motif and their mutual indwelling (John 10.38; 14.10-11, 20).
5. A corollary Johannine theme is that the Son declares, explains, or makes the Father known by speaking and acting on his behalf (John 3.11-13; 5.19; 14.9-11; 15.15). [Corollary is not exclusive, DA !]

In conclusion, the arguments are about evenly divided for either variant. But the following point is decisive: if John 1.1c, 5.18, 10.30-38, and 20.28 are interpreted as not calling Jesus theos (“God”), then John 1.18 cannot be linked to any corresponding text in this gospel. [Circular argument, DA !] And linkage is the prologue’s purpose. Since ho monogenes huios clearly links to John 3.16 and v. 18, the authentic Greek text of John 1.18 most likely is not monogenes theos but ho monogenes huios, so that it does not call Jesus “God.”

http://servetustheevangelical.com/doc/Is_Jesus_God_in_John_1.18.pdf

What the unknown writer considers "most likely" is speculation NOT evidence.[/SIZE]
 
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Zebra1552

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No. You can answer my points first rather than ignoring them this time around.
Why do you refuse to engage my points, 2ducklow? Are you afraid of my answers? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the points I brought up, and you seem to be keeping up just fine with other users. Why am I different? What makes me worthy of ignoring?
 
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2ducklow

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Why do you refuse to engage my points, 2ducklow? Are you afraid of my answers? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the points I brought up, and you seem to be keeping up just fine with other users. Why am I different? What makes me worthy of ignoring?
i told you, i want to focus on one thing at a time with you. you weren't open to that.
 
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2ducklow

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I know what your assumptions/presuppositions are and I have long since informed you that your unsupported opinion of anything is irrelevant. Thus your opinion of what is or is not compatible with anything is equally irrelevant.
let's take the 'the word was with god' portion of john 1.1

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Now the Greek word translated with is pros, which means unto or towards. Bible translators translate it wrong to support the trinity concept that Jesus is the word and the word was with god, but the meaning is that the word points us towards god. And Jesus being figuratively the word in that he is the fulfillment of the word, and in that he spoke the word that his father gave him, points us towards god, thus my interpretation or opinion liines up with the stated prupose of the book of john as szstated in john 20.28. your interpretation or opinion of 'the word was god" is that the word is a sentient being or a person of god, that is/was with god. thus your interpretation or opinon as to what
the word was with/towards god does not line up with the stated purpose of the book of john whioch is to show us tthat Jesus is the christ, the son of god. I could go into detailed explanations thusly with all those verses. you seem to thing that onlly you are allowed to have an opinon or that you have no opinions your interpretation is the word of god. that''s not true. your interpertations are not the word of god they are just youropinons,.
deralter said:
Somewhat interesting but ignores the fact that overwhelming recent scholarship has determined that "monogenes" does NOT mean "begotten" but "unique" etc.

What we got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you can't reach, that is they just don't listen when you talk reasonable so you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it, well he gets it, and I don't like it any better than you men.

This a random copy/paste from some unknown dood online. The views in this piece of writing are of no more value than the opinion of any random person on the street.
3. A scribe could mistakenly [Speculation, NOT evidence, DA !] have substituted theos for huios due to the immediately preceding proximity of theou.[it is likewise speculation that the theos came first because it is the more difficult reading, which your source stated. you're being very biased here. 2dl]
What the unknown writer considers "most likely" is speculation NOT evidence.
the writer listed the reasons for why it is a difficult verse to decide which is the correct reading, as your source stated.
NET notes 45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo", “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh" Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one.
your source only listed about two reasons for the difficulty with that verse, my source listed other reasons. So you think there is a textual problem but noone knows what the textual problem is? that's what your comments suggest. tip toe through the tulips and pretend like threres no problems with the text, everybody is lieing right?
 
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Zebra1552

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i told you, i want to focus on one thing at a time with you. you weren't open to that.
Not when you don't do the same with others. If you want to focus on one thing just with me, that raises all sorts of red flags to what your motives are for doing so. If you do it with everyone, I wouldn't care. You're singling me out, and I don't like that. If you have a problem with that boundary, tough.
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE=-1][ . . . ]
the writer listed the reasons for why it is a difficult verse to decide which is the correct reading, as your source stated. your source only listed about two reasons for the difficulty with that verse, my source listed other reasons. So you think there is a textual problem but noone knows what the textual problem is? that's what your comments suggest. tip toe through the tulips and pretend like threres no problems with the text, everybody is lieing right?
[/size]

You want to accuse someone of lying! Here is my source again. Let us see if "noone knows what the textual problem is?"
NET notes 45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo", “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh" Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. [Point #1] Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. [Point # 2] Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. Ì75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. [Point # 3] The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. [Point # 4] Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. [Counter argument] (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” [Refutation of counter argument] This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. [Second point, of refutation] Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

tn Or “The unique one.” For the meaning of μονογενής (monogenh") see the note on “one and only” in 1:14.

46tn Grk “in the bosom of” (an idiom for closeness or nearness; cf. L&N 34.18; BDAG 556 s.v. κόλπος 1).
 
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2ducklow

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You want to accuse someone of lying! Here is my source again. Let us see if "noone knows what the textual problem is?"
deralter said:
.
NET notes 45tc The textual problem μονογενὴς θεός (monogenh" qeo", “the only God”) versus ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός (Jo monogenh" Juio", “the only son”) is a notoriously difficult one. [Point #1] Only one letter would have differentiated the readings in the mss, since both words would have been contracted as nomina sacra: thus qMs or uMs. [you trashed this idea a invalid in my quote,, but in your quote it's a good reason. go figure. 2dl]


[Point # 2] Externally, there are several variants, but they can be grouped essentially by whether they read θεός or υἱός. The majority of mss, especially the later ones (A C3 Θ Ψ Ë1,13 Ï lat), read ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός. [you trashed this idea as being invalid and worthless cause you didn't like the dood that said it. 2dl]
Here's what you said
deralter said:
Mostly, but not exclusively, therefore NOT convincing, DA !
your source considers it significant so guess your source is adood source too. you better find another non dood source cause your source you've just trashed, and lauded.

deralter said:
Ì75 א1 33 pc have ὁ μονογενὴς θεός, while the anarthrous μονογενὴς θεός is found in Ì66 א* B C* L pc. [Point # 3] The articular θεός is almost certainly a scribal emendation to the anarthrous θεός, for θεός without the article is a much harder reading. The external evidence thus strongly supports μονογενὴς θεός. [Point # 4] Internally, although υἱός fits the immediate context more readily, θεός is much more difficult. [you trashed this idea as well as being irrelevant or some such thing when my source, whom you call dood, said it, but when your source says it it's good. maybe your source is a dood too 2doods. 2dl]


As well, θεός also explains the origin of the other reading (υἱός), because it is difficult to see why a scribe who found υἱός in the text he was copying would alter it to θεός. Scribes would naturally change the wording to υἱός however, since μονογενὴς υἱός is a uniquely Johannine christological title (cf. John 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9). But θεός as the older and more difficult reading is preferred. As for translation, it makes the most sense to see the word θεός as in apposition to μονογενής, and the participle ὁ ὤν (Jo wn) as in apposition to θεός, giving in effect three descriptions of Jesus rather than only two. [Counter argument] (B. D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture, 81, suggests that it is nearly impossible and completely unattested in the NT for an adjective followed immediately by a noun that agrees in gender, number, and case, to be a substantival adjective: “when is an adjective ever used substantivally when it immediately precedes a noun of the same inflection?” [Refutation of counter argument] This, however, is an overstatement. First, as Ehrman admits, μονογενής in John 1:14 is substantival. And since it is an established usage for the adjective in this context, one might well expect that the author would continue to use the adjective substantivally four verses later. Indeed, μονογενής is already moving toward a crystallized substantival adjective in the NT [cf. Luke 9:38; Heb 11:17]; in patristic Greek, the process continued [cf. PGL 881 s.v. 7]. [Second point, of refutation] [irrelevant, it's a long winded discussion about whether theos is anarthous, has nothing to do with whether son or theos is the correct translation. 2dl]


Second, there are several instances in the NT in which a substantival adjective is followed by a noun with which it has complete concord: cf., e.g., Rom 1:30; Gal 3:9; 1 Tim 1:9; 2 Pet 2:5.) The modern translations which best express this are the NEB (margin) and TEV. Several things should be noted: μονογενής alone, without υἱός, can mean “only son,” “unique son,” “unique one,” etc. (see 1:14). Furthermore, θεός is anarthrous. As such it carries qualitative force much like it does in 1:1c, where θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος (qeo" hn Jo logo") means “the Word was fully God” or “the Word was fully of the essence of deity.” Finally, ὁ ὤν occurs in Rev 1:4, 8; 4:8, 11:17; and 16:5, but even more significantly in the LXX of Exod 3:14. Putting all of this together leads to the translation given in the text.

tn Or “The unique one.” For the meaning of μονογενής (monogenh") see the note on “one and only” in 1:14.

46tn Grk “in the bosom of” (an idiom for closeness or nearness; cf. L&N 34.18; BDAG 556 s.v. κόλπος 1).
you need to look for a non dood source.
 
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2ducklow

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Not when you don't do the same with others. If you want to focus on one thing just with me, that raises all sorts of red flags to what your motives are for doing so. If you do it with everyone, I wouldn't care. You're singling me out, and I don't like that. If you have a problem with that boundary, tough.
i din't single you out i did t he same thing with der alter
 
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Der Alte

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[SIZE="-1"]2 reasons don't make for a notoriously difficult reason. he just didn't list but a couple.[/SIZE]

"2 reasons?" I counted at least 4, and highlighted them in blue. There may be more. You got a problem take it up with the NET publishers. Don't waste everybody's time with copy/pastes from Ned Nobody.
 
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Zebra1552

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Wow... with one other person. So you're singling TWO people out. There are plenty of examples withing this thread of you addressing more than one issue in a single post. If you have such a problem with addressing multiple points in one post, then post multiple responses.
 
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ittarter

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i never accused you of saying that Jesus is god.

But here's you admitting it earlier...
you said Jesus is god incarnate, i paraphrased it as you saying Jesus is god
So I don't feel the force behind your denial.

Saying that Jesus is god doesnt get to the point however. Saying Jesus is god is like saying George is king, or alfred is king. there are lots of kings in the world, and there are lots of gods in the world. some people have carved rocks for gods. The real question is if Jesus is god is he YHWH?
Yes, I think we are all assuming that when we talk of God, in this specific context, we are speaking monotheistically and thus refer to YHWH.
you have in effect steped out of the problem of deciding if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god.
Not at all. I have simply assumed a monotheistic stance for the whole of this conversation, since the New Testament (the literary body that is most directly relevant to our discussion) itself assumes a stolidly monotheistic stance. But this is really a moot point, so let's move on to your actual argument.

IF he is YHWH then that means he is a spirit since YHWH is a spirit. That would mean that flesh is spirit since Jesus is flesh.
Is Jesus ONLY flesh? Obviously not. Is he flesh AND spirit? It seems so. Thus, we affirm that YHWH is spirit (not "a spirit") but deny that it says anywhere in the Bible that YHWH is NOT and can NEVER be spirit and flesh. Unless you can point me to something in the Bible that makes that claim, your purported contradiction falls apart.

IT's not that it's too simplistic to say if Jesus is or isn't the omnipresent spirit YHWH god. it's impossible to explain the contadiction taht saying Jesus is god or Jesus is the ominpresnent spirit YHWH god results in. so you have in effect divorced yourself from dealing with that problem and justify it by saying words to the effect 'Oh it's to simplistic to say Jesus is god"
Well, to hope to convince you to rethink this claim, let me direct you to part of the first verse of John 1:

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with god, and the word was god.
We read here that God's word was WITH God and WAS God. However, according to your rules of interpreting predicative phrases, this a contradiction, since nothing can be with something and BE that something at the same time.

I'm not saying that I understand the intricate nature of the incarnation. What I'm trying to show is that all of your arguments fall flat, because even if we choose to rule out the possibility of a simple identification -- Jesus IS Yhwh -- we are still left with a myriad of possibities that have been, thus far, unexplored, and still meaningfully locate the nature of deity within the flesh of a single member of humanity, in a much more integrated and objective sense than the way in which the Holy Spirit indwells God's faithful community.
 
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2ducklow

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"2 reasons?" I counted at least 4, and highlighted them in blue. There may be more. You got a problem take it up with the NET publishers. Don't waste everybody's time with copy/pastes from Ned Nobody.
hummmmmm, the guy seems right on, i'm gonna check out who he is if i can. whaddaya know i found it.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I became troubled years ago about my belief in the Trinity and thus that Jesus is God. It was because Jesus said of his return, “But about that day and/or hour no one knows, neither the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32 NRSV). [/FONT]






On September 29, 2011, I plan to divulge my identity as the author of The Restitution of Jesus Christ. Then I will be available to participate in public debates with any qualified person in which a substantial audience can be guaranteed. Such debates would be entitled, Is Jesus God? The other debater would argue that Jesus is God. Beginning in 2011, those interested in organizing such a debate can contact the webmaster here.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I became troubled years ago about my belief in the Trinity and thus that Jesus is God. It was because Jesus said of his return, “But about that day and/or hour no one knows, neither the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32 NRSV).
[/FONT]

http://servetustheevangelical.com/authors_quest_for_real_jesus_3.html

seems to be an interesting bloke, some say he is James White.
 
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2ducklow

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But here's you admitting it earlier...
So I don't feel the force behind your denial.
I had assumed at that time that you were correct, latter on i checked back and discovered that I never accused you of saying Jesus is god.
ittarter said:
Yes, I think we are all assuming that when we talk of God, in this specific context, we are speaking monotheistically and thus refer to YHWH.
Not at all. I have simply assumed a monotheistic stance for the whole of this conversation, since the New Testament (the literary body that is most directly relevant to our discussion) itself assumes a stolidly monotheistic stance. But this is really a moot point, so let's move on to your actual argument.

Is Jesus ONLY flesh? Obviously not. Is he flesh AND spirit? It seems so. Thus, we affirm that YHWH is spirit (not "a spirit") but deny that it says anywhere in the Bible that YHWH is NOT and can NEVER be spirit and flesh. Unless you can point me to something in the Bible that makes that claim, your purported contradiction falls apart.
pretty vague stuff.
ittarter said:
Well, to hope to convince you to rethink this claim, let me direct you to part of the first verse of John 1:

We read here that God's word was WITH God and WAS God. However, according to your rules of interpreting predicative phrases, this a contradiction, since nothing can be with something and BE that something at the same time.
you are correct.if something is with something it can't be the thing it's with. prob. is, for you that is, that god never said 'the word was with god, he said the word was towards god." contradictions are to you like deep truths too deep to fathom, but to me they are just that contradictions and as such proof that you are wrong.

It doesn't say with it says unto or towards , the greek word is pros, and pros means unto or towards. bible translators just change it to what suits their doctrine here.Bible translators change preposistions willy nilly to whatever suits their interpretation.
ittarter said:
I'm not saying that I understand the intricate nature of the incarnation. What I'm trying to show is that all of your arguments fall flat, because even if we choose to rule out the possibility of a simple identification -- Jesus IS Yhwh -- we are still left with a myriad of possibities that have been, thus far, unexplored, and still meaningfully locate the nature of deity within the flesh of a single member of humanity, in a much more integrated and objective sense than the way in which the Holy Spirit indwells God's faithful community.
just gobbeldy goop to me. perhaps if you defined what you mean by nature, i might be able to better make heads or tails of it. See god is a spirit, but a nature is not a spirit a nature is not a flesh,as is commonly thought in trinitarian circles.
 
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