John 6:44. Election/Salvation Questions

[Ultima4257]

The above verse states one can only come to salvation if The Father draws them. How would an unbeliever persuade God to draw them unto Himself so they can be saved? Is it a simple matter of asking Him, or would that contradict the "radical depravity" of man since no one seeks God?

 

[RC1970]

The above verse states one can only come to salvation if The Father draws them. How would an unbeliever persuade God to draw them unto Himself so they can be saved? Is it a simple matter of asking Him, or would that contradict the "radical depravity" of man since no one seeks God?

Romans 3:11

 

[AvgJoe]

The above verse states one can only come to salvation if The Father draws them. How would an unbeliever persuade God to draw them unto Himself so they can be saved? Is it a simple matter of asking Him, or would that contradict the "radical depravity" of man since no one seeks God?

John 6:44, as well as, verses 37, 39, 65 & 70 all seem to clearly state that God sovereignly chooses who will come to Jesus and that He will not lose any of them. John 6:44 is especially strong, in that, Jesus says that no one comes to Him unless it has been granted to him by the Father. But, is this election to eternal life? Or to something else altogether?

In John 6:66, some of those who were following Jesus did in fact turn away and stop following. If Jesus loses none of those who come to Him, how is it that some of those who came to Him stopped following Him? And in John 6:70, Jesus says that He chose all twelve of His disciples and that one of them is a devil. If election, spoken of here, is to eternal life, then John 6:70 contains the strange teaching that Jesus elected Judas to eternal life, knowing that Judas was/would be controlled by the devil. Jesus states that He chose all twelve, including Judas. It makes much more sense to realize that election, here, is not to eternal life, but to purpose and service. Only in this way can we allow for Judas to be chosen/elected by Jesus, as Judas did serve a very special role and purpose within the ministry and mission of Jesus.

 

[Albion]

The unbeliever cannot persuade God that way. Depending upon one's particular variety of Christian theology, God has decided it before the person's birth; or, if not that, 2) the person will make the choice himself because God has endowed him with revelation (the Bible) and free will sufficient for him to believe.

 

[Zatek]

Debating these individual passages with Calvinist is pointless. They will just bring up another passage. And then another. And then another.

What it comes down to is that either people have freewill or they don't. If I have freewill, and I choose to disobey God instead of obeying God, then I'm the evil one. If I don't have freewill, and God makes me sin, and then God punishes me for it, then God is the evil one. According to Calvinism God is the most evil being in the universe because he's the one forcing billions of people to sin every day, and then punishing them eternally for something he made them do.

 

[Albion]

Debating these individual passages with Calvinist is pointless. They will just bring up another passage. And then another. And then another.

What it comes down to is that either people have freewill or they don't. If I have freewill, and I choose to disobey God instead of obeying God, then I'm the evil one. If I don't have freewill, and God makes me sin, and then God punishes me for it, then God is the evil one.

If that were the choice, sure. However, no Calvinist (or any Christian church that I know of) thinks that "God makes me sin." You're merely erecting a strawman with that argument.

According to Calvinism God is the most evil being in the universe because he's the one forcing billions of people to sin every day

That's a completely erroneous rendition of Calvinist theology. That said, the question is whether you intend to misrepresent Calvinists or just don't know enough about Calvinism.

 

[Zatek]

If that were the choice, sure. However, no Calvinist (or any Christian church that I know of) thinks that "God makes me sin." You're merely erecting a strawman with that argument.

That's a completely erroneous rendition of Calvinist theology. That said, the question is whether you intend to misrepresent Calvinists or just don't know enough about Calvinism.

It's a matter of simple logic. Either people can choose to obey God or they can't. There is no in-between. If you say that all people are able to their free will to choose to obey God, then you've just refuted any idea of election. If you say that people don't have freewill and can't chose to obey God, then you've just proved my point.

 

[Albion]

It's a matter of simple logic. Either people can choose to obey God or they can't.

That's not the issue. The point concerned your claim that "God makes me sin." You said this twice in that post, but God does not MAKE anyone sin, nor do Calvinists teach that he does.

 

[Zatek]

That's not the issue. The point concerned your claim that "God makes me sin." You said this twice in that post, but God does not MAKE anyone sin, nor do Calvinists teach that he does.

I already addressed this point. We all sin, so the question is why. If I sin because I chose to, then I'm at fault. If I sin because God somehow prevented me from obeying him, then he's at fault.

 

[Albion]

I already addressed this point. We all sin, so the question is why. If I sin because I chose to, then I'm at fault. If I sin because God somehow prevented me from obeying him, then he's at fault.

All right, but THAT is not even close to what you wrote in your last two posts. So I guess I should commend you for correcting them now.

 

[Zatek]

All right, but THAT is not even close to what you wrote in your last two posts. So I guess I should commend you for correcting them now.

Sure I did. Maybe you missed it?

If I have freewill, and I choose to disobey God instead of obeying God, then I'm the evil one. If I don't have freewill, and God makes me sin, and then God punishes me for it, then God is the evil one.

 

[Albion]

Sure I did. Maybe you missed it?

You previously wrote that God makes people sin. Now you've revised that to this:

If I sin because God somehow prevented me from obeying him, then he's at fault.

That's quite different. Not only have you turned an absolute into "IF God does" something, but you also changed God makes people sin to God "prevented me from obeying him."

Stick with the revision.

 

[Zatek]

You previously wrote that God makes people sin. Now you've revised that to this:


That's quite different. Not only have you turned an absolute into "IF God does" something, but you also changed God makes people sin to God "prevented me from obeying him."

Stick with the revision.

Preventing someone from obeying and forcing someone to disobey have the same result, the person has no choice and must disobey. If God gives people no choice but to disobey then he's the problem.

 

[Albion]

Preventing someone from obeying and forcing someone to disobey have the same result, the person has no choice and must disobey. If God gives people no choice but to disobey then he's the problem.

If If If. You can pose hypotheticals all day long and it doesn't prove anything about what Calvinists DO teach and believe.

 

[Zatek]

If If If. You can pose hypothetical all day long and it doesn't prove anything about what Calvinists DO teach and believe.

It proves that Calvinist teachings have no grounding in reality if you won't answer the simple question of whether or not people have free will.

If God gives us freewill, why do people need to be "elected"?

If God doesn't give us freewill, why are we responsible for our sin and God isn't?

 

[inquiring mind]

The above verse states one can only come to salvation if The Father draws them. How would an unbeliever persuade God to draw them unto Himself so they can be saved? Is it a simple matter of asking Him, or would that contradict the "radical depravity" of man since no one seeks God?

Unbelievers who have a repentant, good heart will feel drawn to God by the Holy Spirit (therefore God draws them). They still have to make the choice to accept Him.

 

[Albion]

It proves that Calvinist teachings have no grounding in reality if you won't answer the simple question of whether or not people have free will.

Whether people have free will or not, Calvinists do not teach that God makes people sin. That's just patently false and I felt that any discussion here on the subject needs to be honest.

If God gives us freewill, why do people need to be "elected"?

Obviously, if God has his elect, then men do not have free will to either choose him and be saved or choose against God.

If God doesn't give us freewill, why are we responsible for our sin and God isn't?

Because men have the ability (or free will, if you wish) to do wrong. Election does not mean that every thought and deed has been scripted by God, which would make us mere robots. It means that some have been chosen to have the Faith that saves.

 

[Zatek]

Whether people have free will or not, Calvinists do not teach that God makes people sin. That's just patently false and I felt that any discussion here on the subject needs to be honest.

It absolutely does. God created people and if God did not give them freewill to choose then how is it the person's fault if they sin? It has to be God's fault.

Obviously, if God has his elect, then men do not have free will to either choose him and be saved or choose against God.

So you admit you believe people don't have a choice to obey. If you can't obey then disobedience is not your fault, it's God's fault since he made you not able to obey.

Because men have the ability (or free will, if you wish) to do wrong. Election does not mean that every thought and deed has been scripted by God, which would make us mere robots. It means that some have been chosen to have the Faith that saves.

Freewill means people have the ability to do right or wrong, right meaning obedient to God and wrong meaning disobedient. Being able to choose between different kinds of disobedience is not freewill.

 

[paul1149]

The above verse states one can only come to salvation if The Father draws them. How would an unbeliever persuade God to draw them unto Himself so they can be saved?

If you desire from the heart to be reconciled to God, then the Father is drawing you. As has been cited, no man seeks God on his own.

 

[Lukaris]

I think it comes down to whether we have done good or evil in our lives and that is only something God can determine. We have free will and we also know God predestines as a fact. It also seems impossible for us to understand how God predestines within our limited intellects. I believe what the Lord says in John 6:44 is a summation of what He says overall in His Gospel. Within the Gospel of John, verses like John 3:16-21 & John 5:22-30 come to mind. We are called in some way to evangelize even if just by prayer ( Matthew 9:36-38 ) alongside living according to the Lord's commands to be charitable & pray (for ourselves & others, per Matthew 6:1-15 ). Those who have not heard or honestly misunderstood the Gospel will be judged by their actions as St. Paul preaches in Romans 2 or like the verses I previous listed from John 5:22-30.