John 6:38-39

[Hank77]

I still see the word "should" in John 6:39 as dealing with something that is not a guarantee (not involving any kind of permission).

YLT
Joh 6:39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
ASV
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Greek to English is not always what we think it is.
This verse does not say that He will definitely do anything only that the Father has given Him the authority/permission to do it or not do it.
It is not a confirmation of what He will do and therefore, is not a confirmation of OSAS or any other doctrine.

That is my position on this verse. And seeing the OP has disallowed the verses to be taken in context of those around it or who is being spoken to, or when these words were spoken, it limits the ability to strengthen any debate or doctrine one way or the other.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

YLT
Joh 6:39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
ASV
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Greek to English is not always what we think it is.
This verse does not say that He will definitely do anything only that the Father has given Him the authority/permission to do it or not do it.
It is not a confirmation of what He will do and therefore, is not a confirmation of OSAS or any other doctrine.

That is my position on this verse. And seeing the OP has disallowed the verses to be taken in context of those around it or who is being spoken to, or when these words were spoken, it limits the ability to strengthen any debate or doctrine one way or the other.

I think it is best to figure out what a word is saying by using the ____(fill in the blank)___ method in relation to looking at the surrounding words or context instead of looking at a language that nobody has experience in actually speaking and writing as a part of one's life experience. Nobody today has grown up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Folks are only guessing.

A test would be to say the same sentence using different words (i.e. a parable, real world example, or parallel).


...

 

[sdowney717]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/39/p0/t_conc_1003039

'should lose nothing'
according to the original Greek, the single word used for the english phrase is G622, 'destroy'.

So then Christ is basically saying
Of all those the Father has given me I destroy nothing but raise it up on the last day. (or lose nothing)
Which does support OSAS, since Christ will destroy nothing = lose nothing, referring to them given to Him by the Holy Father.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G622&t=KJV
Ain't it grand to look into the meaning of scripture!
apollymi

1. to destroy
   
   1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
      
      
   2. render useless
      
      
   3. to kill
      
      
   4. to declare that one must be put to death
      
      
   5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
      
      
   6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
      
2. to destroy
   
   1. to lose
      

Strong’s Definitions G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

 

[EmSw]

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/6/39/p0/t_conc_1003039

'should lose nothing'
according to the original Greek, the single word used for the english phrase is G622, 'destroy'.

So then Christ is basically saying
Of all those the Father has given me I destroy nothing but raise it up on the last day. (or lose nothing)
Which does support OSAS, since Christ will destroy nothing = lose nothing, referring to them given to Him by the Holy Father.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G622&t=KJV
Ain't it grand to look into the meaning of scripture!
apollymi

1. 
   
   
   • to destroy
     1. to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
        
        
     2. render useless
        
        
     3. to kill
        
        
     4. to declare that one must be put to death
        
        
     5. metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
        
        
     6. to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
   • to destroy
     1. to lose

Strong’s Definitions G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:—destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

How do you explain the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son in Luke 15?

 

[sdowney717]

How do you explain the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the lost son in Luke 15?

Christ teaching there emphasizes that the lost is found by the one who looks to find.

the sheep
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

the coin
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

the son
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost.
Luke 19:9-11New King James Version (NKJV)
9 And Jesus said to him,

“Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

Christ has not failed to seek and save that which was lost. Consider that Christ came to seek after and to save the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

That is Christ came for His lost sheep and die for them as He says in John 10.
None of what Christ said has changed or modified, it is only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel that He helps to salvation as it says in Hebrews 2:16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham

15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

So then those who are of Him, that is really begotten of Him born of the Holy Spirit of God, are of course His own sheep.
To be of the house of Israel means you are one of those foreknown by the Father that Christ will save. So then of His sheep beforehand, prior to your conversion to Christ, you are foreknown to be of His sheep by the Holy Father and so then of the house of Israel.

Romans 8
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 9 says this
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

So then can you make the spiritual connection here of a truth that not all are God's children?
God's children are only of those whom He calls according to election that His purpose might stand, so then Christ seeks and saves those whom He has foreknown as His elect children. So then they are only of those God has foreknown and in love made them alive who were dead in sin. Eph 2, says the reason God made us alive and not some others is due to His love for us.

Which is why it says in Eph 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

 

[EmSw]

Christ teaching there emphasizes that the lost is found by the one who looks to find.

the son
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

But the father did not go out and seek his prodigal son.

Another thing, are you saying the saved sheep can be lost?

 

[sdowney717]

But the father did not go out and seek his prodigal son.

Another thing, are you saying the saved sheep can be lost?

Yes, but not permanently lost, their being lost is just temporal or of relating to a period of time in their earthly existence.

That they are always Christ's sheep is true in that God has known them before He made of them physical creatures in this reality, in this age.

But they were still born into this world and so then being born will fall into sin, so they have need of a savior redeemer who is actually their near kinsman who will pay the price for the redemption of His family members. They were known to God beforehand as sons and daughters, brethren, the children of God.

The children of God have partaken of flesh and blood and He has also partaken of the same as His brethren to aid to salvation those who are 'of the seed of Abraham', not to those who are of the seed of the world who are the seed (children) of Satan.

Jesus told us that some have Satan as their father and they are his children and desire to the deeds of their father the devil, John 8.
The parable of the wheat and the tares fully describe this spiritual reality.

In the field of the Lord, do you agree that some are planted by God, as the good seed and some are planted by Satan, the weeds tares among the wheat?

Matthew 13:24
[ The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares ] Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
Matthew 13:25
but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.

Hebrews 2
Bringing Many Sons to Glory
10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

“Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[sdowney717]

Review what Jesus says about Abraham's children who are Abraham's true seed according to Christ and Satan's seed who claimed to be Abraham's seed but were and are liars.

v42 tells us a lot, as Christ says if God was their FATHER they would then love God, they would love Christ since He came from the Father, since they would be true sons of Abraham, Abraham's' seed, God's children.


Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Then this, they desire to stone Christ to death. Of course Christ tells them the truth about themselves, Himself, God and Satan.
Christ tells them plainly they are liars when they claim to be of Abraham's seed.

Before Abraham Was, I AM
48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.