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John 6:38-39

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Kaleb5000, Aug 5, 2016.

  1. Kaleb5000

    Kaleb5000 Member

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    I would agree with this. However numerous times in the bible it says if we believe in Christ we have eternal life. So I have no doubts I am saved. But that's besides the point. Only God knows who has truly given them selves to Christ.


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  2. Kaleb5000

    Kaleb5000 Member

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    I started this thread because I wanted a discussion on those verses and to not have people run off and get way off track which Jason did on his first post.

    Jason can go back to his other threads and do that if he wants. He refuses to answer simple questions here.


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  3. Kaleb5000

    Kaleb5000 Member

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    How can you say you have no idea. What hope is there in that. What hope is there in the gospel. I know exactly where I am going when I die. As to what the Lord will do with me once there that is not 100% clear but we know from what the bible says it seems pleasant.

    The thread is getting off track and I am contributing to it.


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  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    So the words "should" and "may" just do not apply here, is that it?
    What English teacher has taught you such a thing?
    As for the answering of your questions: Well, they are loaded questions (that are false) because they are based upon ignoring the words "should" and "may." In other words, that would be like Rick asking if Bob had seen any two headed fire breathing pink and purple cats yesterday. Such a question is erroneous because it is ignoring reality. Just as you are doing with your questions. You are ignoring the reality of the words "should" and "may" when asking your questions. In other words, your questions are based on faulty presumptions because they are ignoring the truth in some way.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2016
  5. alexandriaisburning

    alexandriaisburning Well-Known Member

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    Salvation isn't something that is "held" or something that can be "lost". The question about whether a single sin changes the "savedness" of a person simply illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of God and salvation.
     
  6. alexandriaisburning

    alexandriaisburning Well-Known Member

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    I'm not talking about "faith" or "assurance". I very specifically used the word "knowledge", which is fundamentally different from that about which you are speaking. One can have "confidence" and "faith" that something will come to pass, but this is not "knowledge" of the same.
     
  7. alexandriaisburning

    alexandriaisburning Well-Known Member

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    I can say it because I don't know. And neither do you.

    The hope of the gospel is not rooted in the ability of the human mind to "know" about God. This is why faith is necessary, why we need belief to transcend the necessary and inescapable limitations and shortcomings of our subjectively-mired thinking.

    You most certainly do not "know" this. You believe it, of course, and you have confidence in it as well; that's all very well and good. However, you are being intellectually dishonest when you say that you "know" it...as a finite, contingent being that is not able to overcome your own finitude and the subjectivity of thought, there is no way in which you could arrive at such knowledge, much less demonstrate that it is actual.

    Welcome to the internet.
     
  8. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Looking at the passage in context it is speaking of the men that Jesus actually spoke with and not people of all times. This is seen in the passage, but also verified by Jesus word later on.

    11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
    12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
    (Jn. 17:11-12 KJV)

    In the passage Jesus said that He should lose none. The word "should" indicates intent not conclusion. We see from Jesus' words that one of them, the men the Father had given Him, was lost. The word "given" is a past tense word, thus indicating a completed action. When Jesus gave His prayer, in John 17, the men had already been given to Him. That this is a past event is further illustrated by Jesus word later on in the same pray.

    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; (Jn. 17:20 KJV)

    Here Jesus makes a distinction between those the Father had given Him and those who would believe through the preaching of the apostles. From this we see that those who would believe are not those who were given, thus they are two different groups.
     
  9. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Yes, Jesus mention two groups, but acknowledges both groups as having been given to Him by the Father.

    v24 includes those who will believe on the testimony of the apostles as being given to Him by God.
    "as Jesus says "that they also which you gave ME may be with Me."

    The 'they also' is the all believers group.

    This is distinct from where Jesus mentions the apostles in John 17:
    6
    I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.


    Jesus Prays for All Believers
    20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
    21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
    22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
    23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
    24 “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
    25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You;

    Besides that, to be consistent, stick with what Christ says in other places when referring to any persons who come to Him as being given to Him by the Father, not singling out just the apostles. Christ eventually says if He be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me, so then of course being glorified, Christ is of course also the Father and also does the same things the Father does. So then He is the one doing the drawing of men.

    And of course all men will be drawn irresistibly to God and Christ for judgement on the Last DAY as He is sitting on the throne of His glory.

    Matthew 25:30-32New King James Version (NKJV)

    The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
    32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  10. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    Gave is past tense. It was a completed act when Jesus prayed. There is no mention of anyone else being given.
     
  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Yes a completed work of God as it says, all God's works were finished from the foundation of the earth.
    Hebrews 3
    3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

    “So I swore in My wrath,
    ‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

    although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”


    Which is why it also says in Ephesians 1
    Redemption in Christ
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

    All of God's works were completed in Himself from the beginning, and that includes all those to be born. God has foreknown all things before any of them existed, they were in God's loins so to speak.
     
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    You've taken those passages out of context. However, Jesus did contrast those who were given (past tense) with those who would believe (future tense). It's clear from the grammar that the group who would believe are not those who had been given.
     
  13. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    They were given 'past tense' to Christ from the foundation of the earth.
    You just don't want to believe this as it invalidates your theology.
    Who will you agree with yourself or what scripture says?

    This is the same idea expressed here, notice all the words are also in the past tense.
    Romans 8

    28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


    God could have said predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies, but He did not. This tells us these have the absolute certainty with no possibility of any other outcome since they are spoken into being in the past. They are completed works of God from the foundation of the earth.

    In Revelation it uses similar past tensing to teach us about those who follow Satan.
    Rev 17
    The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
    7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    These words were not written by Paul, yet they are the words of God. and in agreement with the words also of Christ. Unless you have been given to Christ, then you will remain blinded in your mind by Satan and follow after him, just as Ephesians 2 teaches.

    Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
    By Grace Through Faith
    2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    No it doesn't you're simply imposing your Calvinistic belief on the Scriptures. As I pointed out twice now Jesus differentiated between two groups. One was given in the past and the other would believe in the future. Nothing is said about this group being given to Christ. So, it's your theology that the Scriptures don't agree with.

    Not only is this passage out of context, your interpretation has nothing to do with the context. In context, in this passage of Scripture Paul is referring to Jews that God has dealt with in the past. That is why all of the verbs are past tense. Paul writing about Jews that have loved God and how God has worked all things together for their good. It's not even referring to Christians. That this is the case is easily seen when we read the rest of the passage.

    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
    2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. (Rom. 11:1-2 KJV)

    [/quote]In Revelation it uses similar past tensing to teach us about those who follow Satan.
    Rev 17
    The Meaning of the Woman and the Beast
    7 But the angel said to me, “Why did you marvel? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

    These words were not written by Paul, yet they are the words of God. and in agreement with the words also of Christ. Unless you have been given to Christ, then you will remain blinded in your mind by Satan and follow after him, just as Ephesians 2 teaches.

    Ephesians 2New King James Version (NKJV)
    By Grace Through Faith
    2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

    4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
    [/QUOTE]

    There's nothing here about people being foreknown.
     
  15. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Probably correct, especially since this is not the only verse that says essentially the same thing. What's more, the claim made by some people that those referred to in this verse are the only ones so elected still shows that God DOES choose and have his Elect--which every opponent of OSAS claims is not so.
     
  16. Charlie24

    Charlie24 Newbie

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    It is the "will" of the father that nothing is lost. In vs 40 we find it is also the "will" of the Father that everyone who sees the Son believes on Him. Did that happen? Of course not!

    Jesus did not fail carrying out the "will" of the Father. The will of the Father respects the free will of man. Man chooses his own destiny, and man can fall from grace.
     
  17. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Looking at 'foreknew'

    Romans 8:29
    For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
    Romans 11:2
    God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying,
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

    Both verses teach eternal salvation for those whom He foreknew, whether they are Jews or Gentiles
    God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew, they are saved.


    In Romans 11, Paul is talking about the elect, that is those who are born according to God's promise that Abraham would have a son, Isaac, and be the father of a great nation of believers in God's promise just as he was. Which also includes gentiles. That is taught in Romans 9.

    4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[c] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

    “God has given them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,
    To this very day.”[d]

    The elect always obtain salvation since God foreknew them as His people beforehand. and so then arranges all the circumstances of their life, drawing them to the Son to be saved.
     
  18. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    That seeing is not the physical body of Christ. It is the seeing of Christ as the only begotten son of the Father, full of grace and truth.
    It is seeing Christ as who He is, the full embodiment of the Majestic Glory of God.

    Otherwise to you, you will think Him a madman, a prophet or nothing at all.
    Look up the verse where Christ asks His disciple, whom do men say that I AM,

    John 1:14
    [ The Word Becomes Flesh ] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    They saw the glory of Christ, since they were His people. In truth all His people will see this for themselves with their own eyes in marvelous admiration, not just with the eyes of their understanding.
    2 thessalonians 1
    9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2016
  19. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    imho,
    There are two definition of 'may', that 'there is a possibility', the other is in sense of 'giving permission.'
    In verse 39, it is in the sense of giving permission.

    Joh 6:39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;

    The Father gave His will that Jesus may raise it up in the last day. That reiterates what He said in v37, that He would no wise cast out.
    He is stating that His authority, to not do and to do, was given Him by the Father.

    Mat 11:27 `All things were delivered to me by my Father, and none doth know the Son, except the Father, nor doth any know the Father, except the Son, and he to whom the Son may wish to reveal Him .

    In the above verse 27 it seems to be in the sense of 'there is a possibility', it is the Lord's choice. Whomever He wills to reveal the Father to.
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Thank you. I still see the word "should" in John 6:39 as dealing with something that is not a guarantee (not involving any kind of permission). For it is the Son's desire to try to save and lose nobody. It is the will of the individual that prevents Jesus from saving them if they later choose to rebel against Him. But yes, the word "may" in verse 40, is clearly dealing with a possibility but in the sense of giving permission (with the probability of the person fully believing God or not fully believing God). For some believers are only willing to believe up to a point but fall away (like in the Parable of the Sower).

    For example: A father may say to his son that he may drive his car (i.e. giving him permission). The son can receive the car by his father's permission for free, but he has to abide by the rules that the father sets for driving the car. Such as obey the speed limit, and keep the car clean, and keep it in good working order, etc. So the son could obey his father's rules for a time and then later choose to break his rules (Thereby breaking the agreement (i.e. permission) he has to drive his father's car. The son has a choice.

    "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life [i.e. they may have everlasting life based on their continued belief (i.e. acceptance and obedience) to the words of Jesus as they study God's Word]: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:40).

    For those who later choose or refuse to obey all of the Lord's Commands are not really believing or trusting in the Lord (because they are not accepting all of the Lord's words).

    Note: The above words in blue within brackets is my commentary to the words that are underlined.


    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2016
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