-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
John 20:23
- Thread starter B4Eddie
- Start date
- Status
B4Eddie writes: "What did Jesus actually mean in this passage?
Who, besides Jesus, can "remit" sins?"
It's easier for me to understand this verse (John 20:23) as not refering to the apostolic power to forgive or retain the sins of individuals, but the power of proclaiming the forgiveness that was in Christ or the condemnation that came with the individual's rejection of Him. It seems to be consistent with the idea that the disciples were to carry on the ministry of Jesus after His departure and return to the Father (John 15:27, 16:1-4, and 17:18).
No one other than God can remitt sin.
In Christ,
Tracey
Who, besides Jesus, can "remit" sins?"
It's easier for me to understand this verse (John 20:23) as not refering to the apostolic power to forgive or retain the sins of individuals, but the power of proclaiming the forgiveness that was in Christ or the condemnation that came with the individual's rejection of Him. It seems to be consistent with the idea that the disciples were to carry on the ministry of Jesus after His departure and return to the Father (John 15:27, 16:1-4, and 17:18).
No one other than God can remitt sin.
In Christ,
Tracey
Upvote
0
Hey Dusty: hard to improve on your answer! It is a challenging text and our Orthodox bros have a different take on it. This power to loose and retain does not seem to have been given only to the Apostles since others were likely in the room at the time Jesus made this statement (20:19, "the disciples" as opposed to merely "the Twelve" later on in v.24). Al
Upvote
0
Sorry, I should have quoted in context:duster1az said:
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Upvote
0
abbygirlforever
Loved by the Father
- Aug 7, 2003
- 2,949
- 113
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
I have read up on this verse. The disciples of Christ were to spread the Good News through all the world. In a sense, they had the power to remit or not remit sins (so to speak) by whether or not they shared the good news. If they didn't tell somebody and that person never knew, how could they have forgiveness of sins? The disciples couldn't actually say "I forgive you" or "I don't forgive you." It was in the telling that they gave the opportunity for forgiveness. That's the way it has been explained to me.
Upvote
0
panterapat
Praise God in all things!
Jesus is giving Peter and the apostles the power to forgive sin. And by apostolic sucession, also to those who followed the apostles so that the Church may continue to grow. (I will be with you always to the end of the age)
The Catholic Church believes that Peter is our first pope. And this passage is the basis for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession)
In Christ, Patrick
The Catholic Church believes that Peter is our first pope. And this passage is the basis for the Sacrament of Reconciliation (confession)
In Christ, Patrick
Upvote
0
abbygirlforever
Loved by the Father
- Aug 7, 2003
- 2,949
- 113
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Female
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
Not at all. It means that you have the opportunity. Whether you choose to accept that opportunity or not is up to you. But if you never hear the word, how can you choose? Whether or not this is the meaning of the passage I am not sure, but this is one view of the meaning.
Upvote
0
Patristic
Koine addict
Read in connection with Matthew 16 and 18 this verse makes a lot more sense. Jesus wasn't saying whoever's sin you declare is forgiven is forgiven and whoever's sin you declare is retained is retained. To read this passage in this way, is I believe, to commit eisegesis and read more into the text than what is there. The Apostolic prerogative he grants to the disciples in John 20:23 is closely connected with Jesus' granting the Apostles the ability to bind and loose on earth.
Upvote
0
Another possibility is that Jesus was referring to church discipline - the authority which the church has to expel a member for serious and scandalous sin, and then take that person back into fellowship if later repentant. Such sin would be not only against God, but against the community of which the offender is a member. The forgiveness extended would then be a sort of "temporal" forgiveness as opposed to remitting the eternal consequences of sin, which only God can do.
Upvote
0
AphiEmi/krateO Opposite meaning Release/Retain
Jn 20:22 v_ 2aor.act.imp.2.pl. "You all take holy spirit."
And saying this, He exhales and is saying to them, "Get holy spirit!"
Jas 5:10 v_ 2aor.act.imp.2.pl. "Brothers, you all take...
Be taking, my brethren, the example of *suffering evil and *patience you |have~: the prophets who speak in the name of the Lord.
Jn 20:23 [av - A Greek particle indicating that something can or could occur on certain conditions, or by combination of certain fortuitous causes.]
By combination of holy spirit and you all if everyones sins you might release their sins have been being released.
If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them.
[av - A Greek particle indicating that something can or could occur on certain conditions, or by combination of certain fortuitous causes.]
By combination of holy spirit and you all if everyones sins you might be retaining their sins have been being retained.
If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
Jn 20:23 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl. - v_ perf.pas.ind.3.pl.
If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them.
Jn 20:23 v_ pres.act.sub.2.pl. - v_ perf.pas.ind.3.pl.
If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
Jn 20:23 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them. If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
Jn 16:32 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
Lo! the hour is coming and has come, that you should be scattered, each to his own, and you may be leaving Me alone. And I am not alone, for the Father is with Me.
Mt 18:35 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
"Thus shall My *heavenly *Father also be doing to =you, if each one should not be pardoning his *brother, from your *hearts."
Mt 6:15 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
Yet if you should not be forgiving *humanmen their *offenses, neither will your *Father be forgiving your *offenses.
Mt 6:14 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
"For if you should be forgiving *humanmen their *offenses, your *heavenly *Father also will be forgiving you.
Acts 18:6
Now at their resisting~ and blaspheming, _shaking~ out his *garments, he said toward them, "Your *blood be on your *head! Clear am I! From *now on I shall |go~ intoto the nations."
Acts 13:46
_Being bold~, both *Paul and *Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of *God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting~ it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of *eonian life, lo~! we are turning~ intoto the nations.
Jn 20:22 v_ 2aor.act.imp.2.pl. "You all take holy spirit."
And saying this, He exhales and is saying to them, "Get holy spirit!"
Jas 5:10 v_ 2aor.act.imp.2.pl. "Brothers, you all take...
Be taking, my brethren, the example of *suffering evil and *patience you |have~: the prophets who speak in the name of the Lord.
Jn 20:23 [av - A Greek particle indicating that something can or could occur on certain conditions, or by combination of certain fortuitous causes.]
By combination of holy spirit and you all if everyones sins you might release their sins have been being released.
If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them.
[av - A Greek particle indicating that something can or could occur on certain conditions, or by combination of certain fortuitous causes.]
By combination of holy spirit and you all if everyones sins you might be retaining their sins have been being retained.
If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
Jn 20:23 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl. - v_ perf.pas.ind.3.pl.
If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them.
Jn 20:23 v_ pres.act.sub.2.pl. - v_ perf.pas.ind.3.pl.
If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
Jn 20:23 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
If you should be forgiving anyone's sins, they have been forgiven them. If anyone's you should be holding, they are held."
Jn 16:32 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
Lo! the hour is coming and has come, that you should be scattered, each to his own, and you may be leaving Me alone. And I am not alone, for the Father is with Me.
Mt 18:35 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
"Thus shall My *heavenly *Father also be doing to =you, if each one should not be pardoning his *brother, from your *hearts."
Mt 6:15 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
Yet if you should not be forgiving *humanmen their *offenses, neither will your *Father be forgiving your *offenses.
Mt 6:14 v_ 2aor.act.sub.2.pl.
"For if you should be forgiving *humanmen their *offenses, your *heavenly *Father also will be forgiving you.
Acts 18:6
Now at their resisting~ and blaspheming, _shaking~ out his *garments, he said toward them, "Your *blood be on your *head! Clear am I! From *now on I shall |go~ intoto the nations."
Acts 13:46
_Being bold~, both *Paul and *Barnabas, say, "To you first was it necessary that the word of *God be spoken. Yet, since, in fact, you are thrusting~ it away, and are judging yourselves not worthy of *eonian life, lo~! we are turning~ intoto the nations.
Upvote
0
Siomething that is a very common practice is to try to understand a passage divorced from the historical understanding of the Church . .
This is why so many struggle with this verse as it says something that Protetantism does have a problem with in general . ..
A very logical way to approach understanding scritpure is to see how the Early Church understood this, how they practiced and taught the Christian faith . .
When we look to the Early Church, for which there is abundant documentation, we see that they understood this to mean exactly what it says, and no less than what it says.
Jesus told His disciples that as the Father sent Him, so sends He them . .
Just as God the Father sent Jesus His Son and gave Him the power to forgive sins, so Jesus sends His disciples . . and gives them the power to forgive sins . . in the same chapter . .
The Church, from its beginning, understood and believed that the Apostles, and those they ordained, and then those who were ordained by those the Apostles ordained, and so forth, had the power, given by Jesus to the Apostles and passed down to those who followed them in the priestly office, to forgive sins . .
It wasn't until a few hundred years ago that this belief began to be lost in Protestant circles . .
The question that has to be answered is this .. which is more right, an interpretation almost 2000 years after the Church began that has no tie to what that First Church believed, taught and practiced in this regard?
Or what the First Christians believed regarding this?
I started learning over 3 years ago what the Early Church believed, taught and practiced . . and it most definitely believed in the Sacraments and in this Sacrament of confesssion ot a priest and the priest power to absolve/forgive one's sins . .
Peace in Him!
This is why so many struggle with this verse as it says something that Protetantism does have a problem with in general . ..
A very logical way to approach understanding scritpure is to see how the Early Church understood this, how they practiced and taught the Christian faith . .
When we look to the Early Church, for which there is abundant documentation, we see that they understood this to mean exactly what it says, and no less than what it says.
Jesus told His disciples that as the Father sent Him, so sends He them . .
Joh 20:21
Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
This is the context the verse in question is set in, this is the key . .
Just as God the Father sent Jesus His Son and gave Him the power to forgive sins, so Jesus sends His disciples . . and gives them the power to forgive sins . . in the same chapter . .
The Church, from its beginning, understood and believed that the Apostles, and those they ordained, and then those who were ordained by those the Apostles ordained, and so forth, had the power, given by Jesus to the Apostles and passed down to those who followed them in the priestly office, to forgive sins . .
It wasn't until a few hundred years ago that this belief began to be lost in Protestant circles . .
The question that has to be answered is this .. which is more right, an interpretation almost 2000 years after the Church began that has no tie to what that First Church believed, taught and practiced in this regard?
Or what the First Christians believed regarding this?
I started learning over 3 years ago what the Early Church believed, taught and practiced . . and it most definitely believed in the Sacraments and in this Sacrament of confesssion ot a priest and the priest power to absolve/forgive one's sins . .
Peace in Him!
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
