John 20:23

[ryanpw]

21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
John 20:21-23


I just recently came across this passage. Now, i have always believed that the practice of confession that the catholic church requires was a bunch of lies. Because, at least as i believe, the preisthood ended when Christ died and was signified through the ripping of the curtain. But this has brought me to consider that they might possibly be right, at least to a degree, on this topic.
So my question is this, to what degree are they right? Can only preist do this or anyone with the Holy Spirit? When would you retain sins? After all, you are suppose to forgive anyone their sins against you if they ask, or if they dont. I don't believe it is, but should this be required? Any insight is appreciated.

 

[Dmckay]

21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
John 20:21-23


I just recently came across this passage. Now, i have always believed that the practice of confession that the catholic church requires was a bunch of lies. Because, at least as i believe, the preisthood ended when Christ died and was signified through the ripping of the curtain. But this has brought me to consider that they might possibly be right, at least to a degree, on this topic.
So my question is this, to what degree are they right? Can only preist do this or anyone with the Holy Spirit? When would you retain sins? After all, you are suppose to forgive anyone their sins against you if they ask, or if they dont. I don't believe it is, but should this be required? Any insight is appreciated.

And your assumption was correct. I direct your attention to the passage in question. Jesus is confirming His resurrection to the assembled disciples (except for Thomas who is missing). He breathes upon them, and tells them, ""Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Jesus isn't speaking just to Peter, nor is He speaking just to the Apostles. He is speaking to all of the assembled disciples. They are gathered together in fear and in confusion, for, just a few days previous they had observed the Triumphal Entry. They were convinced that Jesus was the Messiah and was meant to be King of the Jews. He had spoken to them about serving Him in His Kingdom. At other times Jesus had sent them out after empowering them with the power and authority to cast out demons, perform miracles and bring believers to salvation. They were, after all, to be the vessals through which Jesus would establish His church.

This was not the empowering or indwelling of the Holy Spirit that was being given at this time. Remember that the last thing that Jesus charged the Apostles with, was that they were to remain in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit came to indwell them. This passage was a visitation of encouragement and reaffirmation that the ministry to which the Apostles and disciple had been called was still going to happen. After this first appearance Jesus meet many more times with the Apostles and the,up to 500 disciples to give them more specifics on what they were to do.

If you read the book of Hebrews, it is made quite apparent that the priesthood had been permanently set aside, by Jesus' final offering. We are directly told that there is now only ONE intercessor in 1Timothy "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," I'm sure, that if the Apostle Paul believed that the practice of confession, as taught by the Catholic Church was correct, he would not have taught this to Timothy.

 

[5stringJeff]

If you read the book of Hebrews, it is made quite apparent that the priesthood had been permanently set aside, by Jesus' final offering. We are directly told that there is now only ONE intercessor in 1Timothy "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," I'm sure, that if the Apostle Paul believed that the practice of confession, as taught by the Catholic Church was correct, he would not have taught this to Timothy.

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but my understanding of Hebrews is not that the priesthood is set aside permanently, but that because Jesus is the great High Priest, and fulfills the priestly duties, that there is no longer any need for humans to be priests to fulfill those duties. Or is that what you were saying in the first place? Please forgive me, I'm still new here!

 

[Dmckay]

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but my understanding of Hebrews is not that the priesthood is set aside permanently, but that because Jesus is the great High Priest, and fulfills the priestly duties, that there is no longer any need for humans to be priests to fulfill those duties. Or is that what you were saying in the first place? Please forgive me, I'm still new here!

No, you are correct on both parts. Because Jesus is our great High Priest and has offered the perfect sacrifice, there is no need for human priests to serve as intercessors in any manner. There is now only one mediator between G-d and man, Jesus. The perfect High Priest and the perfect sacrifice.

The passage that you were asking about in John is difficult in its understanding because it fell in the overlap period between the Law of Moses and the actual beginning of the Church. The sin offerings under the Mosaic system had lost their effect with the offering of Christ. The Holy Spirit had not yet descended to indwell the believers thus empowering the Church.

 

[ryanpw]

I know that Christ is the High Priest and we don't need any more sacrifices, but this was after Christ had died and his spirit made available to all.
This is just a theory but what if he was giving them the right to not forgive those who absolutely refused to hear the message of Christ. On their seperate missions before Christ death, Christ told them to wipe their feet off at any door or city where there were not accepted. Im still kind of working on it.
Again, any insight appreciated.

 

[digitalfreight]

I know that Christ is the High Priest and we don't need any more sacrifices, but this was after Christ had died and his spirit made available to all.
This is just a theory but what if he was giving them the right to not forgive those who absolutely refused to hear the message of Christ. On their seperate missions before Christ death, Christ told them to wipe their feet off at any door or city where there were not accepted. Im still kind of working on it.
Again, any insight appreciated.

Hi Ryan,

I completely agree that there is no longer any need for another mediator besides Jesus, but sometimes people need to hear it again from another Christian, and be assured that it is real. That is the gift Jesus gives in John 20:23.

We do have the awesome responsibility for proclaiming the power of Christ's sacrifice in the forgiveness of sins when another brother or sister is stricken in their conscience by a particular sin.

I think you're right on the flip-side as well. We cannot proclaim the love and forgiveness of Christ to those who remain alienated from him in their sin. However, I think the primary thrust of this passage is probably in reference to those who claim to be followers of Jesus, yet remain comfortable in their sins.

Another similar passage: Luke 17:3-4"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

This passage begs the question, if he does not repent, then what? You may forgive him on a personal level, meaning you no longer desire revenge, or dwell on that particular sin. But you may not offer him the consolation of forgiveness in Christ. He needs to know that his sin permanently and fatally separates him from God. He needs to hear that his sins are not forgiven.

Our earnest hope is that this leads him to repentance. Paul talks this way in 1 Corinthians 5:5. What a terrifying thing to be told by your brother Christian that he is "handing you over to Satan". I don't know exactly what that means, but I would pray that it was awful enough to convict a brother of sin, put that sin to death in him, and allow him to come back to life through the gospel.

It really is what the church is about. Preaching forgiveness to the penitent, and judgment for the impenitent. In our church we confess our sins together at the beginning of the service. It's a great way to cleanse the heart for Spirit-led worship (and yes I know that some people might muddle their way through it without thinking about it). Then our pastor repeats the words of Christ's forgiveness to us. They are real and they are ours!

It wouldn't have to be a pastor, but that's what we've asked him to do for us. Bring us God's word of judgment upon our sins, and forgiveness in our repentance. Not forced or required like the Catholic Church practices, but healthy and cleansing and quite frankly for me, a great daily ritual. (I still have to find a pastor or faithful CHristian brother or sister who is willing to wake up at 6am and pronounce Christ's forgiveness for me, but at least once a week I get to hear it personally!

Blessings,

Mike

 

[digitalfreight]

One more quick thought (obviously a favorite topic of mine). Galatians 6 is also a great example of Christian discipline. Galatians 6:1Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

There are some great open questions here, what does it mean 'you who are spiritual'. I think it means those who are walking in the Spirit by faith. But what is eminently clear is that we have a responsibility to hold our brother's and sister's in Christ accountable for sin with the goal of restoration. And in this way we bear one another's burdens and fulfill Christ's command. What is that command? I think John 20:23 and Matthew 16:19 and Matt. 18:18 tell it like it is. Forgive those who need forgiving, confront in love, gently, with the goal of restoration, those who need confronting.

But if they are really hard-hearted... try binding them over to Satan. Whew... that one still gets to me.

Hope this helps,

Mike

 

[angelosKD]

21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
John 20:21-23


I just recently came across this passage. Now, i have always believed that the practice of confession that the catholic church requires was a bunch of lies. Because, at least as i believe, the preisthood ended when Christ died and was signified through the ripping of the curtain. But this has brought me to consider that they might possibly be right, at least to a degree, on this topic.
So my question is this, to what degree are they right? Can only preist do this or anyone with the Holy Spirit? When would you retain sins? After all, you are suppose to forgive anyone their sins against you if they ask, or if they dont. I don't believe it is, but should this be required? Any insight is appreciated.

we are now part of the royal priesthood, as Israel was first called to be but failed. When we pray the Lord's praer, everyone of us hears our commission by God to forgive sins, as we have been forgiven, and here and in other passages like Mat 16:20 we are given the authority. Naturally the ever intitutionalized (1700 year old) Catholic Church wants to keep that very usedful (at least politically in the past, cf Henry VIII among other rulers threaten by the pope) power to itself.