John 12:25

[fishing]

More confusion.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Doesn't seem like either option is all that preferable? If someone craves eternal life, she must secretly love her earthly life, right? We can only grasp at notions of eternal life by extrapolating from experiences we've had in our earthly lives. But if she (secretly or otherwise) loves her life, she'll lose it. Now, if she hates her life, she'll have to experience it eternally? That almost seems like the worst of the two fates?

 

[Clare73]

More confusion.

Doesn't seem like either option is all that preferable? If someone craves eternal life, she must secretly love her earthly life, right? We can only grasp at notions of eternal life by extrapolating from experiences we've had in our earthly lives. But if she (secretly or otherwise) loves her life, she'll lose it. Now, if she hates her life, she'll have to experience it eternally? That almost seems like the worst of the two fates?

Sounds like you could use a good Bible study.

Try to find one.

 

[fishing]

Well, I'm asking online. Can the answer not be provided in these forums?

 

[emmyan]

Well, I'm asking online. Can the answer not be provided in these forums?

It can be provided but without an explanation of the Holy Spirit - it would be nothing and still misunderstood...

 

[ebedmelech]

More confusion.

Doesn't seem like either option is all that preferable? If someone craves eternal life, she must secretly love her earthly life, right? We can only grasp at notions of eternal life by extrapolating from experiences we've had in our earthly lives. But if she (secretly or otherwise) loves her life, she'll lose it. Now, if she hates her life, she'll have to experience it eternally? That almost seems like the worst of the two fates?

Context is everything as well as understanding hyperbolic language.

Think about this...Peter denied Christ...so if you take that passage literally Peter could not have been saved.

 

[toLiJC]

More confusion.

Doesn't seem like either option is all that preferable? If someone craves eternal life, she must secretly love her earthly life, right? We can only grasp at notions of eternal life by extrapolating from experiences we've had in our earthly lives. But if she (secretly or otherwise) loves her life, she'll lose it. Now, if she hates her life, she'll have to experience it eternally? That almost seems like the worst of the two fates?

on the one hand it is about the love for the neighbours(the other humans) in John 12:25, on the other hand it is about the hatred towards the life under (the) sin(the system of (the) spiritual iniquity) therein

1 Corinthians 10:24-33 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth..... Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many(i.e. of all humans), that they may be saved.",

1 John 5:17-21 "All unrighteousness(viz. all unrighteousness in the faith) is sin: and there is a sin not unto death(viz. and there is a spiritual iniquity which is ceased). We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not(i.e. we are aware that every believer/spiritual worker/follower who is spiritually born of the true Lord God does not commit spiritual iniquity); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not(i.e. and satan cannot use it as a spiritual servant/worker of the unrighteousness). And we know that we are of God, and the whole world(i.e. the whole kingdom of (the) human(666) spirituality/religion) lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true(i.e. That Who is the true God), and we are in him that is true(i.e. and we are in Him - in the true God Father), even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols(i.e. from (the) misbeliefs and (from) (the) false gods/lords). Amen."

Blessings

 

[fishing]

Thanks everyone.

emmyman

I want to understand. I think I've grasped the concept of the holy Spirit. One cannot feel any truth in the Bible without it. It's a gift, and God measures it out to every person differently. It's essentially predetermined in that way.

But. How do we recognize what is Holy Spirit and what isn't? You're suggesting that we let it guide us in interpretation, yes? But what if the discomfort I feel with interpreting these verses as is conventional within the Christian community is actually the way that the Holy Spirit is guiding me? Also: if everyone who accepts Scripture as authoritative and accepts Jesus is good with God, why is it that we see such a range of behaviour within the Christian community? We have everything from the Westboro Baptist Church, KKK and inquisition, to Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr, and various other kind and welcoming Christians that I come across all the time.

Which Christian is led by the Holy Spirit and which isn't?? It certainly seems as though these groups of people, although all claiming the title of 'Christian', are led by something different entirely . . .

 

[fishing]

ebedmelech,

thanks. Yes, it is about context, and understanding hyperbolic language, but you see, already it's becoming very complicated: meanings shift and change. Why would it be that God would only allow people to get to the Truth about Jesus through rather complex thinking? What about the people who do not have those cognitive abilities?

 

[fishing]

toLiJC,

Thanks! OK so it is essentially hate for the sinful life (w/o God) but love for life (w/ God) as achieved through Christ?

But do many Christians believe wholeheartedly enough in the Gospel to be willing to give their earthly lives for it?



(Apologies for silly questions. Genuinely trying to understand.)

 

[toLiJC]

toLiJC,

Thanks! OK so it is essentially hate for the sinful life (w/o God) but love for life (w/ God) as achieved through Christ?

But do many Christians believe wholeheartedly enough in the Gospel to be willing to give their earthly lives for it?

(Apologies for silly questions. Genuinely trying to understand.)

the believers should hate the evil, not the humans - this is the idea, because the evil is an invisible spirit which must completely and permanently be removed from all humans, and it is not said (that) the believers should do it without having good lives here in this physical world at all, but they could have both the right faith and the good/harmless physical consumptions

Blessings

 

[fishing]

toLiJC,

Is that really what it says though? It kinda seems like that interpretation of Scripture is just cherry picking to ensure that Christians have the best possible earthly lives alongside the additional promise of eternal life / salvation.

It seems to me that there are a lot of passages in the Bible where God seems to 'test faith' by seeing whether people are willing to give up their lives / relations that are very dear to them to prove their loyalty to God.

 

[ebedmelech]

ebedmelech,

thanks. Yes, it is about context, and understanding hyperbolic language, but you see, already it's becoming very complicated: meanings shift and change. Why would it be that God would only allow people to get to the Truth about Jesus through rather complex thinking? What about the people who do not have those cognitive abilities?

Keep in mind much of what Jesus said was stated to confound those who thought they knew God.

Those who thought they knew were the very ones that were lost.

 

[fishing]

So is the fact that I'm absolutely uncertain about anything proof of salvation?!

I never think I know anything.

Perhaps any form of certainty on our part looks like arrogance to God.

But I think I see what you're saying. If the Gospel is confusing to me, that must be because I don't know God. Well for whatever it's worth, I'm trying pretty hard to make sense of it. No luck. Pretty close to giving up on it, honestly. Another one bites the dust, right.

 

[football5680]

It is basically talking about our physical worldly life. What leads us to sin is the craving of worldly desires. So Jesus is saying that whoever loves this life and cares more about the present and fulfilling their desires on earth will lose their life because this desire will lead towards sin which is separation from God. But, if you hate this life which means you desire to do the will of God over your own earthly desires, you will find your life which is eternal life in Heaven.

 

[toLiJC]

toLiJC,

Is that really what it says though? It kinda seems like that interpretation of Scripture is just cherry picking to ensure that Christians have the best possible earthly lives alongside the additional promise of eternal life / salvation.

It seems to me that there are a lot of passages in the Bible where God seems to 'test faith' by seeing whether people are willing to give up their lives / relations that are very dear to them to prove their loyalty to God.

it is about overall salvation in the Scripture, not test, because the humans under sin need full salvation from the ruin, not additional complications/afflictions, it is as in the medicine, the purpose therein is that the patients be healed without being perplexed/exacerbated, because the sick people need to be healed, not to be spoiled/tortured, or if (God forbid) you suffer from very great ills and there is no who to help you, would not you rather/prefer there (to) be a salvation for you?!, or is there such a person/soul that would not prefer/like to be freed from undesirable disturbances or insufferable afflictions by which it is stricken/affected?!

Matthew 7:12 "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

so the self-sacrifice is not compulsory, but it is given that the love be willing

Blessings

 

[emmyan]

Thanks everyone.

emmyman

I want to understand. I think I've grasped the concept of the holy Spirit. One cannot feel any truth in the Bible without it. It's a gift, and God measures it out to every person differently. It's essentially predetermined in that way.

But. How do we recognize what is Holy Spirit and what isn't? You're suggesting that we let it guide us in interpretation, yes? But what if the discomfort I feel with interpreting these verses as is conventional within the Christian community is actually the way that the Holy Spirit is guiding me? Also: if everyone who accepts Scripture as authoritative and accepts Jesus is good with God, why is it that we see such a range of behaviour within the Christian community? We have everything from the Westboro Baptist Church, KKK and inquisition, to Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr, and various other kind and welcoming Christians that I come across all the time.

Which Christian is led by the Holy Spirit and which isn't?? It certainly seems as though these groups of people, although all claiming the title of 'Christian', are led by something different entirely . . .

Your questions are very good and important.
Jesus left us the only and the surest way to distinguish a wicked man from a righteous one:
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
(Matthew 7, NASB)

You see now? There're great words John said also:
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
(1John 3, NASB)

There have always been separations inside Christianity. Even so many years ago Paul wrote to the church of Corinth about their false beliefs and quarrels (see 1Cor.1:11-17). Why is it so? The answer is simple. It's all because they search for their own benefits. They choose the way that would be convenient for them to worship God. They don't wanna do this on His standards and His demands, because then you have to die to yourself and pick up your cross and follow Him, not yourself.
Because "he who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal".
So...A true Christian acts as Christ did...Don't be confused if there're things in the Bible you can't understand yet Just seek God's face and His truth no matter what happens and He will surely do what He had promised:

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find ; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened"
(Matt 7, NASB)

"HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS; And sent away the rich empty-handed." (Luke 1:53)
P.S. If the truths you get are truly of God then your life will soon be filled with the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-23).

Do not give up! It takes time to understand God's character. May God bless you and guide you!

 

[fishing]

Thanks everyone! Good answers ... food for thought. I won't give up; I suppose we all have dark nights of the soul.

 

[ebedmelech]

So is the fact that I'm absolutely uncertain about anything proof of salvation?!

I never think I know anything.

Perhaps any form of certainty on our part looks like arrogance to God.

But I think I see what you're saying. If the Gospel is confusing to me, that must be because I don't know God. Well for whatever it's worth, I'm trying pretty hard to make sense of it. No luck. Pretty close to giving up on it, honestly. Another one bites the dust, right.

No fishing, I would never come to that conclusion. Only you can know if you're saved. God tells us "the Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God" (Romans 8:16).

Many times we receive salvation through God's mercy, but we are being wrongly taught from God's word!

Remember why all the Epistles are written. They are written correcting churches about how to understand our salvation and how we should conduct ourselves in serving God.

Let me ask you to really do a careful reading of Ephesians...and before you start pray and ask God to open your eyes by His Holy Spirit to what you're reading. I PROMISE YOU, God will open your eyes to some of what you read...just leave it to God what He open your eyes to.

 

[x141]

More confusion.

Doesn't seem like either option is all that preferable? If someone craves eternal life, she must secretly love her earthly life, right? We can only grasp at notions of eternal life by extrapolating from experiences we've had in our earthly lives. But if she (secretly or otherwise) loves her life, she'll lose it. Now, if she hates her life, she'll have to experience it eternally? That almost seems like the worst of the two fates?

Don't equate eternal life with living forever as contrived by the earthly mind, but knowing our Father that is this life.

The same scenario Jesus spoke of was not new, it is found in the garden in genesis, having to do with the tree of knowledge representing our reasoning., the garden our soul (in one picture).

Don't eat of it, die to self reasoning, eat of it, die of self reasoning.

 

[Noxot]

More confusion.

He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Doesn't seem like either option is all that preferable? If someone craves eternal life, she must secretly love her earthly life, right? We can only grasp at notions of eternal life by extrapolating from experiences we've had in our earthly lives. But if she (secretly or otherwise) loves her life, she'll lose it. Now, if she hates her life, she'll have to experience it eternally? That almost seems like the worst of the two fates?

I love my life that is Christ and thus I lost my old life. I hate my life in this world. now what is this world? it is the illusion of darkness, the negation of blindness for what my true life really is, that true life that I love, my divine life I have from my God who created me his child and all his children that he gave life to, each of us a blood cell of his own blood which is eternal and everlasting. which do you prefer? a lie or the truth? because the worlds blind view of life vs Gods view of life is what Jesus is speaking about. who had the better view of life? Jesus said he is the son of man and he also said he is the son of God and he called us brothers. to know you are a child of God is the eternal life, to deny it is to live a life not worth living, ones based in fears or other lower concepts of reality such as the fear of death.