8th March 2003 at 02:47 AM Future Man said this in Post #61
John 8:40 and John 17:1,3 NEGATE your theory that "God could and did later BECOME a man."
John8:40 does nothing more than agree with me. Jn17:3 does nothing more than hold you to a double-standard. And even, hypothetically, if John17:3 did "refute" Trinitarianism [which if you had read the link provided you would have found that it does not], how does this exclude preexistence? This is why I always like to discuss deity AFTER confirming Christ's preex. Otherwise tangent arguments result.
John 8:40 says Jesus is a MAN. John 17:3 says
the Father is the
ONLY true God. How can this NOT refute Trinitaranism which states CONTRARILY that: 1) the Father is God; 2) the Son is God; and 3) the Holy Spirit is God?
And granted without admitting that Jesus (the Son) pre-existed as God who later BECAME man, how can this SAME Jesus (the Son) be God when this SAME Jesus (the Son) SAYS that
the Father (NOT the Son) is the
ONLY true God?
And granted without admitting that Jesus (Son) pre-existed as God who later BECAME man, Jesus (the Son) could NOT have REMAINED God because Jesus (the Son) SAYS
the Father (Not the Son) is the
ONLY true God.
But Jesus (the Son) did NOT pre-exist as God because:
1) that would mean there were TWO Gods in the beginning which is CONTRARY to what the Bible teaches;
2) if there was ONLY ONE God, then the Son would also have been the Father and if this ONLY ONE God later BECAME man, then there would have beeen NO God in heaven which again is CONTRARY to what the Bible teaches;
And if Jesus (the Son) pre-existed as Michael the Archangel, so what? The TRUTH that Jesus is a MAN and
the Father (NOT the Son) is the
ONLY true God is preserved.
FM states:
John1:14 - The 'Word' [theos vs1] became flesh [man]. God became man. This is *precisely* what the text is stating.
Edpobre replies:
That is ONLY your INTERPRETATION of what apostle John wrote. Apostle John ONLY wrote: "And the WORD became flesh." While it is true that earlier, apostle John wrote that the "WORD was God," my question is: "WHAT was the WORD of God that WAS God and BECAME flesh?
The one which best fits the context. I've gone into the context to demonstrate this. Have you? Another point to make is this; Why does the text state that the 'Word' was WITH God? Why does it state that it was "God"? The very Greek grammar is very indicative of a seperate personality.
You did NOT answer my question. I asked: "WHAT was the WORD that was WITH God and WAS God?
The WORD that was WITH God in the beginning is Isaiah 7:14 where God prophesied the birth of Jesus.
That this WORD was WITH God in the beginning is explained by apostle Peter in 1 Peter 1:20 where he wrote that Jesus was FOREORDAINED before the foundations of the world.
That this WORD (Isaiah 7:14) WAS God is because of the TRUTH that "with God, NOTHING is impossible" (Luke 1:37). Whatever God SAYS, He makes it good (Num. 23:19).
That the WORD became MAN describes the fulfillment of God's WORD (Isaiah 7:14) when Jesus was born (Matt. 1:21-23).
FM states:
1.] I have hardly relied on a "single passage" of scripture. In fact I provided many in my previous post. See:
John1:1-4..cf..1John1:1-2, 5:11..cf..Rev19:13
Heb1:2..cf..Heb11:3..cf..Heb1:10-12
Eph3:9..cf..Col1:15-16
1Cor8:6 etc,. etc,.
2.] This is not merely a "Trintarian" interpretation in regards to Christ's preexistence. The JWs, SDAs, Mormons, etc, all hold that Christ preexisted prior to his birth in Bethlehem despite the fact that they are rabidly anti-Trinitarian.
Edpobre replies:
The verses you quoted do NOT explicitly say that Jesus PRE-EXISTED as God. It is ONLY your INTRERPRETATION that says he did PRE-EXIST as God.
Then you need to refute this understanding of mine in their individual contexts. You can't merely assert your position as refuting mine. You have to prove it from scripture.
You have to look for other INTERPRETATION for these verses because as I stated earlier in this post, Jesus could NOT have pre-existed as God because it does NOT only CONTRADICT what the Bible teaches, but it is ILLOGICAL as well.
God CREATED man in his own IMAGE (Gen. 1:27). Jesus SAYS he is a MAN (John 8:40). Apostle Paul SAYS Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE God (Col. 1:15) or express IMAGE of God's person (Heb. 1:3).
Therefore, Biblically and logically, Jesus is a MAN - not God.
FM states:
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ.
And this is evidently not to the exclusion of the Father. See:
Mat 6:24 No man can serve <B>two masters</B>; for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to one, and despise the other. <B>Ye cannot serve God and mammon</B>.
Edpobre replies:
Jesus SAYS "for ONE is your master, even the Christ." Why do you CONTRADICT what Jesus says? <B>What proof can you show that what Jesus says does NOT exclude the Father?</B>
Did you read what I responded with? It is not I who is contradicting scripture, Ed Pobre. Read the very scripture I provided in the above. It emphatically states that God is our "master". What do you think the word "serve" entails of the one being served? Notice how the entire point of Jesus' words in the above is that God is to be the master whom we serve. Now either "God" here is indicative of Christ, as He is our "only master", or the Father is also referred to as our "master". Simply look up the word "serve" in your concordance as it applies to YHWH. What does this tell us about the Father's position?
Apostle Paul wrote that "every tongue SHOULD confess that Jesus is Lord (master) to the glory of God, the Father" (Phil. 2:11).
To serve God means to OBEY His commandments. God COMMANDS that we LISTEN to Jesus, His Son (Matt. 17:5). And Jesus SAYS that everything he SAYS or SPEAKS is a command from God (John 12:49).
Jesus SAYS he is our ONE master (Matt. 23:10
RSV). Apostle Paul (a disciple of Jesus) wrote that our ONLY ONE God is the Father and our ONLY ONE Lord is Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 8:6).
Thus, to LISTEN to Jesus and BELIEVE what he SAYS is tantamount to serving God, the ONE master of Jesus.
FM states:
You also have yet to negate such passages as Acts4:24 and Rev11:15 etc,. with any viable argument.
The reason that Christ or the Father can be the referred to as the "only" of something and yet not to the exclusion of the other is because together they are inexplainably ONE God.
Edpobre replies:
Why should I believe what you are saying when you CANNOT even EXPLAIN how the Son and the Father are ONE God? Have you been INSIDE the head of Christ that you know WHY, he said "ONLY" referring to him as the ONLY master and the Father as the ONLY true God?
"Explaining" to you HOW they are "ONE" is not my job. Informing you of the FACT that they are, is.
How can you say "it is a FACT" that the Son and the Father are "inexplainably" ONE God? How did you arrive at the FACT?
FM states:
So what of Acts4:24, a post-ascension passage? Remember Acts7. Christ is currently at the right hand of God IN heaven. See:
<B>Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, ALL authority hath been given unto me IN heaven AND on earth. [See Phil2:10-11..cf..Rom14:11]</B>
And <I>your</I> interpretation contradicts other scripture whereas I am simply harmonizing.
Edpobre replies:
HARMONIZING does NOT result in CONTRADICTION FM and you know it. Jesus says ONE, you say TWO. Jesus says ONLY, you say ALSO. How can that be called HARMONIZING?
You failed to respond to the passage provided in the above tied in with Rev11:15.
Acts 4:24 and Rev. 11:15 do NOT NEGATE nor NULLIFY what Jesus SAID in Matt. 23:10 or what apostle Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 8:6, that Jesus is our ONLY ONE Lord or master. Only Jesus and apostle Paul CAN reverse their own statements just as a law passed by Congress can only be rescinded by a law similarly passed by Congress.
These people who addressed God as "Lord God" could have been mistaken or were NOT aware of the statements of Jesus and apostle Paul.
Let me ask you FM, if you see a police car going against the traffic in a one-way street, does that make that street a two-way street despite the existence of a one-way arrow sign?
Please show me a verse where Jesus and apostle Paul reversed what they said in Matt. 23:10 and 1 Cor. 8:6 respectively.
Ed