John 1:9, Nancy Pelosi's "spark of divinity"?

[A.ModerateOne]

The religious right, fundamentalists and evangelicals, scoffed and ridiculed Nancy Pelosi for her idea of a "spark of divinity"; but is that not what is taught in the vast majority of Christian churches today? Isn't that what is taught weekly in most churches, as John Wesley wrote:

"It is more properly termed preventing [today we say “prevenient”] grace … Everyone has some measure of that light, some faint glimmering ray, which, sooner or later, more or less, enlightens every man that cometh into the world."
Reflection on Prevenient Grace - Wesleyan Covenant Association

I have had regular or fundamentalist Baptists tell me that very thing based on John 1:9. Is that what the verse states?

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9 KJV)
or
"The true light which gives light to everyone was even then coming into the world." (John 1:9 REB)

Is Nancy right and the teachers of free will prevenient grace likewise correct? Albert Barnes writes that it means:

1. That this light is not confined to the “Jews,” but is extended to all - Jews and Gentiles.
2. That it is provided for all and offered to all.
3. It is not affirmed that at the time that John wrote all “were actually enlightened,” but the word “lighteth” has the form of the “future.” “This is that light so long expected and predicted, which as the result of its coming into the world, will ultimately enlighten all nations.”

What say ye? At least reading the KJV I know when "you" means plural.

 

[Dave L]

The religious right, fundamentalists and evangelicals, scoffed and ridiculed Nancy Pelosi for her idea of a "spark of divinity"; but is that not what is taught in the vast majority of Christian churches today? Isn't that what is taught weekly in most churches, as John Wesley wrote:

"It is more properly termed preventing [today we say “prevenient”] grace … Everyone has some measure of that light, some faint glimmering ray, which, sooner or later, more or less, enlightens every man that cometh into the world."
Reflection on Prevenient Grace - Wesleyan Covenant Association

I have had regular or fundamentalist Baptists tell me that very thing based on John 1:9. Is that what the verse states?

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9 KJV)
or
"The true light which gives light to everyone was even then coming into the world." (John 1:9 REB)

Is Nancy right and the teachers of free will prevenient grace likewise correct? Albert Barnes writes that it means:

1. That this light is not confined to the “Jews,” but is extended to all - Jews and Gentiles.
2. That it is provided for all and offered to all.
3. It is not affirmed that at the time that John wrote all “were actually enlightened,” but the word “lighteth” has the form of the “future.” “This is that light so long expected and predicted, which as the result of its coming into the world, will ultimately enlighten all nations.”

What say ye? At least reading the KJV I know when "you" means plural.

God hates the wicked. So what you see is not grace in the least. It's a spill-over effect for the sake of the elect who being so few in number could not manage the world without them.

 

[1an]

The religious right, fundamentalists and evangelicals, scoffed and ridiculed Nancy Pelosi for her idea of a "spark of divinity"; but is that not what is taught in the vast majority of Christian churches today? Isn't that what is taught weekly in most churches, as John Wesley wrote:

"It is more properly termed preventing [today we say “prevenient”] grace … Everyone has some measure of that light, some faint glimmering ray, which, sooner or later, more or less, enlightens every man that cometh into the world."
Reflection on Prevenient Grace - Wesleyan Covenant Association

I have had regular or fundamentalist Baptists tell me that very thing based on John 1:9. Is that what the verse states?

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9 KJV)
or
"The true light which gives light to everyone was even then coming into the world." (John 1:9 REB)

Is Nancy right and the teachers of free will prevenient grace likewise correct? Albert Barnes writes that it means:

1. That this light is not confined to the “Jews,” but is extended to all - Jews and Gentiles.
2. That it is provided for all and offered to all.
3. It is not affirmed that at the time that John wrote all “were actually enlightened,” but the word “lighteth” has the form of the “future.” “This is that light so long expected and predicted, which as the result of its coming into the world, will ultimately enlighten all nations.”

What say ye? At least reading the KJV I know when "you" means plural.

John the Baptist was not the light, the true light is Jesus Christ who is the light of the whole world, that, like a light on a hilltop can be seen by all. Believers and unbelievers alike. The unbelievers turn away from the light, preferring darkness, while the believers turn towards the light. In both cases it is the individuals choice. I chose Christ. I was not forced into it, and neither did God single me out from the foundation of the world. The invitation is to everyone. Calvinism is wrong. Nancy and Barnes are correct.
.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

John the Baptist was not the true light, the true light is Jesus Christ who is the light of the whole world, that, like a light on a hilltop can be seen by all. Believers and unbelievers alike. The unbelievers turn away from the light, preferring darkness, while the believers turn towards the light. In both cases it is the individuals choice. I chose Christ. I was not forced into it, and neither did God single me out from the foundation of the world. The invitation is to everyone. Calvinism is wrong. Nancy and Barnes are correct.
.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48 RSV)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8 RSV)

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." (Eph 1:4 RSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB)

 

[Mr. M]

The religious right, fundamentalists and evangelicals, scoffed and ridiculed Nancy Pelosi for her idea of a "spark of divinity"; but is that not what is taught in the vast majority of Christian churches today? Isn't that what is taught weekly in most churches, as John Wesley wrote:

"It is more properly termed preventing [today we say “prevenient”] grace … Everyone has some measure of that light, some faint glimmering ray, which, sooner or later, more or less, enlightens every man that cometh into the world."
Reflection on Prevenient Grace - Wesleyan Covenant Association

I have had regular or fundamentalist Baptists tell me that very thing based on John 1:9. Is that what the verse states?

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9 KJV)
or
"The true light which gives light to everyone was even then coming into the world." (John 1:9 REB)

Is Nancy right and the teachers of free will prevenient grace likewise correct? Albert Barnes writes that it means:

1. That this light is not confined to the “Jews,” but is extended to all - Jews and Gentiles.
2. That it is provided for all and offered to all.
3. It is not affirmed that at the time that John wrote all “were actually enlightened,” but the word “lighteth” has the form of the “future.” “This is that light so long expected and predicted, which as the result of its coming into the world, will ultimately enlighten all nations.”

What say ye? At least reading the KJV I know when "you" means plural.

How can theology, speaking in regard to the Light of Life, speak so much of Grace
and so little of Truth?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

How can theology, speaking in regard to the Light of Life, speak so much of Grace
and so little of Truth?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,
the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.

I do not know what your remark about theology is supposed to reveal or explain. But, the Greek aletheia/truth is found 20 times in the Gospel of John, the Greek charis/grace is found only 3 times, here in chapter 1 of John, vs 14, 16 & 17 where it is joined with/to truth; KJV. Grace is a favorite theme of the Apostle Paul but I see no contradiction with John who emphasizes truth.

 

[1an]

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48 RSV)

"and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain." (Rev 13:8 RSV)

"even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him." (Eph 1:4 RSV)

"We are always bound to thank God for you, my friends beloved by the Lord. From the beginning of time God chose you to find salvation in the Spirit who consecrates you and in the truth you believe." (2Thess 2:13 REB)

Everyone who believes is ordained to eternal life.
It is a promise from the foundation of the earth.
.

 

[Mr. M]

I do not know what your remark about theology is supposed to reveal or explain.

The remark is in response to the link you provided, which by title and content speaks of Grace.

But, the Greek aletheia/truth is found 20 times in the Gospel of John, KJV.

Paul also uses the word in his letters some 45 times.

Grace is a favorite theme of the Apostle Paul but I see no contradiction with John who emphasizes truth.

I was not pointing to any contradiction between John or Paul, nor should you find any.
The point of the remark is that grace and truth are joined as "the Light of Life" that is for all men.
The passage from which the OP references, John 1:9, speaks of that Light.
How can theology separate grace from truth and say it is for everyone, to receive a spark of divinity?

John 3:20. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light,
lest his deeds should be exposed.

Those who do not receive Christ abides in darkness.
Isaiah 26:10. Let grace be shown to the wicked, he will not learn righteousness;
In the land of uprightness he will deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the Lord.

Can we properly serve the Lord by Grace alone?
John 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.

The doctrine of grace is used by many to suggest that grace gives freedom to "do our best."
While grace is understood as a free gift, only Truth gives freedom. John 8:32.
Truth is not something that we believe. He is a Spirit by which we do.

John 3:21. But he who does the Truth comes to the Light, that his deeds
may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He is our Lord.
2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

Everyone who believes is ordained to eternal life.
It is a promise from the foundation of the earth.
.

Faith itself is a gift of God:

"Because, unto you, hath it been given as a favour, in behalf of Christ, not only, on him, to believe, but also, in his behalf, to suffer:"–– (Phil 1:29 EBR)

"... he helped them much which had believed through grace:" (Acts 18:27 RV)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8 NRSV)

Being destined or chosen for eternal life precedes faith, "as many as had been destined" or "those who had been chosen" became believers, no others.

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)
or
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 GNB92)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

Remember, it is NOT what he foresaw about persons, but "whom he foreknew"...

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family." (Rom 8:29 NRSV)
or
"Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers." (Rom 8:29 GNB92)

Those not chosen were never known by Jesus:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23 KJV)

CALVIN AND LUTHER DID NOT INVENT THIS DOCTRINE, IT WAS KNOWN AND STATED IN THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL OF ORANGE, 529 AD -
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

 

[1an]

Faith itself is a gift of God:

"Because, unto you, hath it been given as a favour, in behalf of Christ, not only, on him, to believe, but also, in his behalf, to suffer:"–– (Phil 1:29 EBR)

"... he helped them much which had believed through grace:" (Acts 18:27 RV)

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God" (Eph 2:8 NRSV)

Being destined or chosen for eternal life precedes faith, "as many as had been destined" or "those who had been chosen" became believers, no others.

"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the word of the Lord; and as many as had been destined for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 NRSV)
or
"When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and praised the Lord's message; and those who had been chosen for eternal life became believers." (Acts 13:48 GNB92)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

Remember, it is NOT what he foresaw about persons, but "whom he foreknew"...

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family." (Rom 8:29 NRSV)
or
"Those whom God had already chosen he also set apart to become like his Son, so that the Son would be the first among many believers." (Rom 8:29 GNB92)

Those not chosen were never known by Jesus:

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23 KJV)

CALVIN AND LUTHER DID NOT INVENT THIS DOCTRINE, IT WAS KNOWN AND STATED IN THE CANONS OF THE COUNCIL OF ORANGE, 529 AD -
CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism -- if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

God's good and perfect gifts are for everyone, not only the tulip people, who for some uncanny reason seem to think they are specially elected. Their superiority makes me think of the Pharisees. ALL are welcome, especially the humble in heart, but alongside that comes our freewill choice. We, the human race are the problem and we have the option as to whether we accept Christ or not. I chose Gods gift of free salvation myself. It was my choice. God chose me and every living soul from the foundation of the earth, there is nothing special about me that would make him choose me. We are all equal in His sight and we are all sinners. Because I accepted His free gift, I am a sinner saved by grace, and I thank Him from the bottom of my heart. A wretch like me saved by the grace of God, not by works lest any man should boast.
.

 

[A.ModerateOne]

God's good and perfect gifts are for everyone, not only the tulip people, who for some uncanny reason seem to think they are specially elected. Their superiority makes me think of the Pharisees. ALL are welcome, especially the humble in heart, but alongside that comes our freewill choice. We, the human race are the problem and we have the option as to whether we accept Christ or not. I chose Gods gift of free salvation myself. It was my choice. God chose me and every living soul from the foundation of the earth, there is nothing special about me that would make him choose me. We are all equal in His sight and we are all sinners. Because I accepted His free gift, I am a sinner saved by grace, and I thank Him from the bottom of my heart. A wretch like me saved by the grace of God, not by works lest any man should boast.
.

Your reply exhibits total ignorance of the doctrine of "Unconditional Election" which is briefly described thus: "The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save." TULIP and Reformed Theology: Unconditional Election

"Scripture says: There is no one righteous; no, not one; no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have swerved aside, all alike have become debased; there is no one to show kindness: no, not one." (Rom 3:10-12 REB)

If you are truly interested in the truth of this matter, read what the biblical doctrine of predestination is, before attacking a false depiction of it. The following is the best and most full presentation I know:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/predestination_p.pdf

 

[1an]

Your reply exhibits total ignorance of the doctrine of "Unconditional Election" which is briefly described thus: "The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save." TULIP and Reformed Theology: Unconditional Election

"Scripture says: There is no one righteous; no, not one; no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have swerved aside, all alike have become debased; there is no one to show kindness: no, not one." (Rom 3:10-12 REB)

If you are truly interested in the truth of this matter, read what the biblical doctrine of predestination is, before attacking a false depiction of it. The following is the best and most full presentation I know:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/predestination_p.pdf

I have been on enough forums in the last twenty years including CARM that I left in disgust, to know all about it. It is true the sinner can claim they are one of the elect. God chose EVERYONE for salvation from the foundation of the earth, but it hinges on our acceptance of His salvation, and that is where the great divide separates those who are saved by the blood of the lamb from those who are not, but please do not go round making out you are superior to other Christians. The elect in the Bible, are those chosen by God for special role in His preordained plan.

I have not read your post, I have read too many in a similar vein over the years, and I am fed-up the the back teeth with another 'ism' called Calvinism. Even Judas was elected by God, his plan and purpose to fulfil. Moses was elected by God, but he never saw the Promised Land. Think on.
.