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Yeah . . . I was brought back to Church by a book by a man with some HIGHLY questionable issues (to say the least) . . . and I would NEVER recommend much of his stuff to anyone . . . and only the one book I read as long as I am going through it with the person.I agree.
God will use the false teachers that satan sets up in the pulpit. I was led to Christ by a false teacher's book on the end times. After reading that book, I was scared about going to hell and I needed to find out more about Jesus. Then I just started reading the New Testament.
I know of others with similar situations.
But oh how many are led astray by these men. God will hold them accountable
Yeah . . . that is why I quoted the passage to him . . . a reception of the Spirit w/o tongues . . . exactly as you saidOf course not--that was when the disciples received their salvation.
when the disciples received their salvation.
Yeah . . . that is why I quoted the passage to him . . . a reception of the Spirit w/o tongues . . . exactly as you said
. . . when they were made regenerate.
I think we all agree that God can & has used "bad" preachers. But that doesn't touch the seriousness of what's actually being harmed by him.I agree . . . Osteen may not preach the Gospel . . . but I have no doubt in my mind that if someone falls on their knees and says "Jesus please save me" at one of his services, that Jesus isn't going to say "oh . . . I would love to but . . . you know this is a Osteen service right? I really can't do that right now . . ."
I am not excusing Osteen . . . I find him deplorable. But I know many of blissfully ignorant Christians that listen to him and think well of him . . . and I don't think God will refrain from using this.
For those of us to whom God has revealed the error . . . He will hold us accountable . . . but to the little ol' lady who watches Osteen whom God has not led into doctrinal nuance . . . who will never go to the depths of the kenosis . . . but will ever be blissfully in love with simple devtion to Christ . . . I think God will be fair.
BUT Joel WILL be judged HIMSELF.
Think of Namaan. Remember his request of Elisha? Two mule loads of earth . . . to set up altars for YHWH . . . and a request that YHWH pardon him when he bows in the temple of his kings god . . . because his king was old and Namaan must help him?
What were the two loads of dirt for? In eastern religious thought of the day gods were regional . . . IE Baal is the god of the plains . . . and YWHW was the God of the mountains (or so the pagans thought) . . . if we fight in the mountains YHWH is more powerful . . . we are on HIS SOIL. So he takes YHWH's soil to where he is . . .
So he wants YHWH to have power where he is . . . is that good theology? NO! YHWH is THE God . . . the TRUE GOD . . . whom ALL the earth belongs to. But did Elisha give ol' Namaam a theology lesson about orthodox belief about God . . . NO. Did Elisha say "hey there is only ONE place to offer sacrifices to YHWH . . . in Jerusalem . . . sorry you can't sacrifice or worship on the altars you are going to build" . . . NO. Go in peace was his response.
SO I feel orthodoxy is necessary . . . and right . . . and I will fight for it and call out those who aren't . . . but I will never say that God cannot use one . . . or even that God will not allow one their heresies while He works on them and eventually leads them to orthodoxy . . . afterall . . . we are all heretics somewhere!
LOL
I have another Joel Osteen sermon to analyze, but I would love to know how a person is getting knocked to their knees in an Osteen service. It surely wouldn't be from anything he said. Remember no sin, no repentance and no need for salvation are mentioned in his sermons. So what did the listener hear that caused that conviction?I agree . . . Osteen may not preach the Gospel . . . but I have no doubt in my mind that if someone falls on their knees and says "Jesus please save me" at one of his services, that Jesus isn't going to say "oh . . . I would love to but . . . you know this is a Osteen service right? I really can't do that right now . . ."
I am not excusing Osteen . . . I find him deplorable. But I know many of blissfully ignorant Christians that listen to him and think well of him . . . and I don't think God will refrain from using this.
For those of us to whom God has revealed the error . . . He will hold us accountable . . . but to the little ol' lady who watches Osteen whom God has not led into doctrinal nuance . . . who will never go to the depths of the kenosis . . . but will ever be blissfully in love with simple devtion to Christ . . . I think God will be fair.
BUT Joel WILL be judged HIMSELF.
Think of Namaan. Remember his request of Elisha? Two mule loads of earth . . . to set up altars for YHWH . . . and a request that YHWH pardon him when he bows in the temple of his kings god . . . because his king was old and Namaan must help him?
What were the two loads of dirt for? In eastern religious thought of the day gods were regional . . . IE Baal is the god of the plains . . . and YWHW was the God of the mountains (or so the pagans thought) . . . if we fight in the mountains YHWH is more powerful . . . we are on HIS SOIL. So he takes YHWH's soil to where he is . . .
So he wants YHWH to have power where he is . . . is that good theology? NO! YHWH is THE God . . . the TRUE GOD . . . whom ALL the earth belongs to. But did Elisha give ol' Namaam a theology lesson about orthodox belief about God . . . NO. Did Elisha say "hey there is only ONE place to offer sacrifices to YHWH . . . in Jerusalem . . . sorry you can't sacrifice or worship on the altars you are going to build" . . . NO. Go in peace was his response.
SO I feel orthodoxy is necessary . . . and right . . . and I will fight for it and call out those who aren't . . . but I will never say that God cannot use one . . . or even that God will not allow one their heresies while He works on them and eventually leads them to orthodoxy . . . afterall . . . we are all heretics somewhere!
LOL
I think we all agree that God can & has used "bad" preachers. But that doesn't touch the seriousness of what's actually being harmed by him.
Let's not forget the people lulled into a sugar coma from being fed nothing but DESSERT when they need nutritional "food" to grow and mature on. (& may I note that I'm well aware that most who stay under his teaching most likely WANT IT THAT WAY - THEY REJECT sound teaching to embrace what feels good & strokes their emotional cords)
Then let's not forget the groundwork he's setting in Christianity where as a public figure who writes books, THE MAIN GOSPEL IS IGNORED and he's refusing to talk about sin and anything negative or serious that 'makes people feel take account of themselves'... he claims his message is only to give "HOPE" to people.
That's his idea of "hope"... pep rallys, & telling people how good they are & how much God loves them.
He's training people to seek that instead of the REAL hope - which is in Christ thru the truth of God (the whole counsel of God).
How does one have "hope" if they refuse to confront their sin & repent & if they aren't prepared for spiritual battle in this world? (they need alot more than a pep rally to 'just hang on' - as if that's all this is about). That's nothing more than keeping spiritual babies in your military without being properly taught.
Does he even offer Communion? Baptism? I don't know...
There's damage being done to the church thru this type of watered down, backstroking, warm fuzzy preaching that causes other good Pastors to be attacked for preaching correctly (ie. the non PC way).
I think it's besides the point that God uses him - the problem is, so does Satan.
steps off soapbox.
(that wasn't "at" you... just that I don't take it very lightly when I see the serious damage (imho) it does in other types of ways).
*Zecryphon puts her back on soapbox*steps off soapbox.
It requires a very vague personal responsibility, and people don't want to accept the responsibility for their actions. They want to think it is "outside forces" that make them what they are, and while their parents, teachers, coaches and mentors have had a lot to do with forming them in many different wants, none of those people make us do anything. We are responsible for how we feel, how we think, how we talk, how we act. No one wants to hear that message, or particularly the consequences of those behaviors. Osteen makes it possible to chew on "a little bit of the gospel" without really having to hear the truth about ourselves, and about God.Why are so many buying into the Joel Osteens?
I don't know what Washer said because I haven't heard his sermon, but that passage talks about the "narrow path" being made narrow by the obstacles we put in place between us and God. That is the meaning behind the Greek text. It isn't that narrow until we start putting "idols" in the way that make it difficult to navigate the path. Kind of like your garage. LOLJust as Paul Washer preached on Matthew 7...narrow is the gate and narrow is the path...
Even having said what I did about personal responsibility, there are those who are too new to the faith, or are still seeking, to know the truth from the lies, and Osteen doesn't hit on the truth forcefully enough or often enough for them to get the gospel bare and unadulterated. Remember, teachers are held to a higher standard. They best be teaching what the Bible teaches, and what people need to hear.But again...where does the responsibility and accountability of the individual come into play?
Predestination isn't a doctrine of "you're chosen and you're not." Predestination is defined in Romans 8:29, 30 -- "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." This passage must be read as the foundational passage for election and predestination throughout the rest of the New Testament. He "foreknew" all who would come to Him, but He did not limit who would come. Those He foreknew, He "predestined" (decreed, appointed, settled beforehand) to be conformed to His image. It has nothing to do with election, but is the result of coming to the Lord. "Election" is not as is taught by the "five-pointers" as being a limitation on who shall come, but rather is the acceptance of a true and righteous confession by God. Anyone can make that confession, there are no limitations. Teaching there are is to put God in a box. It is the Holy Spirit who draws, the Holy Spirit who puts the gospel in front of the "seeker" so anyone who claims to be preaching a gospel message has an awesome responsibility to "preach it right."How does predestination fit into all of this?
I'd answer this in 1 prophetical passage:Why are so many buying into the Joel Osteens?
I couldn't imagine fighting those crowds each sunday for that milky, feel good message. Perhaps that church has really strong home church/small groups or something - maybe we don't know the whole picture.
The Bible is quite clear on the subject of personal responsibility ... It is up to us to hear and not be deceived. As Acts 17:11 states:Nadiine
I consider...where does the responsibility of the people come in?
It reminds me of the conversation we were having...that sex sells.
In order for sex to sell...someone has to buy into it.
So it stands to reasons...for fluff to sell...someone has to buy into it.
The Truth is out there. Why are so many buying into the Joel Osteens?
Just as Paul Washer preached on Matthew 7...narrow is the gate and narrow is the path...
I totally agree this false/watered down teaching is dangerous indeed...
But again...where does the responsibility and accountability of the individual come into play?
How does predestination fit into all of this?
Hi Kelly,I couldn't imagine fighting those crowds each sunday for that milky, feel good message. Perhaps that church has really strong home church/small groups or something - maybe we don't know the whole picture.
Severe mistake... when I see the size of that church & the secular interviews he's had w/ Larry King & others, God & His truth gets shoved under the bushell basket so that his "message of hope and love" rings out the loudest. That unfortunately speaks volumes all by itself., but the pastor's message is not diluted--it is strong, challenging teaching, which is exactly what the shepherd is to be doing. I do believe that Osteen is making a big mistake in preaching the fluffy stuff before his congregation, when he has such a monumental opportunity to evangelize.
You know who is Excellent in his teaching of the word of God , Charles Stanley! Now he gives "meat' and you will never go hungry in his church!
You can catch him everyday on "His Channel" internet radio!
Severe mistake... when I see the size of that church & the secular interviews he's had w/ Larry King & others, God & His truth gets shoved under the bushell basket so that his "message of hope and love" rings out the loudest. That unfortunately speaks volumes all by itself.
I'm certainly not saying that every Pastor out there needs to be hammering the pulpit with weekly wrath, punishment & sin messages... that would be unbalanced and not teaching the whole counsel of God properly.
But as far as the cell groups associated w/ Osteen's church, we have to keep in mind WHO THOSE LEADERS are predominantly being fed by: their own pastor: Osteen.
The apples most likely don't fall too far from the cart - they're basically a reflection of their Shepherd's teaching & worldviews - only more thorough & personal (I'D HOPE).
Agreed.I think we all agree that God can & has used "bad" preachers. But that doesn't touch the seriousness of what's actually being harmed by him.
Let's not forget the people lulled into a sugar coma from being fed nothing but DESSERT when they need nutritional "food" to grow and mature on. (& may I note that I'm well aware that most who stay under his teaching most likely WANT IT THAT WAY - THEY REJECT sound teaching to embrace what feels good & strokes their emotional cords)
Then let's not forget the groundwork he's setting in Christianity where as a public figure who writes books, THE MAIN GOSPEL IS IGNORED and he's refusing to talk about sin and anything negative or serious that 'makes people feel take account of themselves'... he claims his message is only to give "HOPE" to people.
That's his idea of "hope"... pep rallys, & telling people how good they are & how much God loves them.
He's training people to seek that instead of the REAL hope - which is in Christ thru the truth of God (the whole counsel of God).
How does one have "hope" if they refuse to confront their sin & repent & if they aren't prepared for spiritual battle in this world? (they need alot more than a pep rally to 'just hang on' - as if that's all this is about). That's nothing more than keeping spiritual babies in your military without being properly taught.
Does he even offer Communion? Baptism? I don't know...
There's damage being done to the church thru this type of watered down, backstroking, warm fuzzy preaching that causes other good Pastors to be attacked for preaching correctly (ie. the non PC way).
I think it's besides the point that God uses him - the problem is, so does Satan.
steps off soapbox.
(that wasn't "at" you... just that I don't take it very lightly when I see the serious damage (imho) it does in other types of ways).
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