Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Church received $4.4M

[Douger]

How many small businesses that have gone bankrupt could that 4.4 million have helped?

The PPP program ended with $138 Billion in leftover funds after providing 5.1 million loans to small businesses.
PPP ending with $138B left over. What happens to the money now?
I don't understand what good you think would have been done by the Lakewood Church laying of it's employees rather than taking out the loan.

 

[Andrewn]

I have no idea but I guarantee you it's not enough.

The key word is "not enough" based on how much net assets remain:

Mat 5:48 So then, be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go, sell your possessions, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried away by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was being tormented, he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side.

I don't think the Lord meant for either rich man to become penniless but rather to be content with normal living.

 

[bèlla]

I am not saying that there are no saved people in Osteens church. I just find his messges lacking depth and food for the flocks.

Joel's messages are motivational. The psychological approach isn't suited for most. It's like listening to Oprah. You need a certain measure of comfort and ease to apply it. If you don't have a lot of cares that's probably enough.

I don't listen to him but I've read a few of his books. I'm not a fan of heavy messages or brimstone. There's nothing wrong with them. But I prefer a different style.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are too many to fit in one post, so I've just added this link which deals with the basics. Please consider these before we get get too deep, as there's a lot more to consider.
Reformed Theology Memory Verses

The first problem I see in this link is faith alone. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 Paul says that faith without love is nothing.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB

Compare this to the verse in the link you provided.

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭NASB

Notice in this message Paul is contrasting justification by faith or by works of the law. He never says we are justified by faith alone. In fact the words “faith alone” are only mentioned one time in the scriptures which is in James 2.

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭NASB

This is the only verse throughout the entire bible that you will find the words “faith alone”. Now James is not saying that we are justified (made right with God) by works. The Greek word translated to “justified” here doesn’t only mean to be rendered or counted as being righteous it also means to be evinced or shown to be righteous. What James is saying here is that we are shown to be righteous by our works. Our works are evidence of our being made righteous by God, not evidence of our faith because he has already said in verse 14 that faith without works is not a saving faith which indicates that it is possible to have faith without works. The popular saying that “faith produces works” sounds nice but isn’t biblical. James reenforces this again in verse 17 when he says that faith without works is dead and yet again in verse 20 when he says that faith without works is useless. So it is quite apparent that faith does not always produce works. John 15:2 also supports the notion that faith does not always produce works. Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. No one can be in Christ without first having faith. After believing we receive the Holy Spirit which will enable us to do good works but even then it’s still not guaranteed that we will adhere to His guidance as Paul points out in Ephesians 4:30. Even after we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption” we can still grieve the Him in disobedience. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not a guarantee of salvation it simply means that we will always feel a conviction of our sins because we have received the knowledge from God. That knowledge never goes away. It’s always there urging us to repent and turn back to God. So many people quote Ephesians 4:30 as evidence of being “sealed with the Holy Spirit” thereby implying that we cannot lose our salvation and completely disregard the first portion of that verse where Paul says “do not grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you have been sealed unto the day of redemption”. Throughout that entire portion of chapter 4 (Ephesians 4:17-32) and on into the beginning of chapter 5 (Ephesians 5:1-6) Paul is warning “the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” (Ephesians 1:1) not to turn back to a sinful way of life and even goes so far as to say to them in chapter 5

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB

By this we can clearly see that being sealed with the Holy Spirit does not guarantee works or salvation. Therefore faith does not necessarily produce works nor does faith alone save anyone. Salvation is the result of faith and love which will undoubtedly produce works. Faith in Christ enables us to do the works and love for God and love for others others motivates us to do them. Look at the examples of works given in James 2:14-16. They’re all works resulting from love. You’ll see the same example in Matthew 25:31-46 in Jesus’ parable of the sheep & goats. Again all the works He mentioned are works resulting from love. So many people get hung up on is it faith or is it faith with works, and they completely miss the whole motivation of love.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are too many to fit in one post, so I've just added this link which deals with the basics. Please consider these before we get get too deep, as there's a lot more to consider.
Reformed Theology Memory Verses

Next I’ll address total depravity. Yes we are all naturally in a fallen state as a result of Adam’s sin. We have received Adam’s sinful nature but what we have not received is the guilt of Adam’s sin. The verses in the link you provided don’t indicate that we have received any guilt as a result of Adam’s sin. I’m confident that you are aware that the scriptures say several times that we will be judged according to OUR DEEDS. We are not judged according to Adam’s deeds.

 

[Dan1988]

The first problem I see in this link is faith alone. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 Paul says that faith without love is nothing.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB

Compare this to the verse in the link you provided.

“For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:28‬ ‭NASB

Notice in this message Paul is contrasting justification by faith or by works of the law. He never says we are justified by faith alone. In fact the words “faith alone” are only mentioned one time in the scriptures which is in James 2.

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:24‬ ‭NASB

This is the only verse throughout the entire bible that you will find the words “faith alone”. Now James is not saying that we are justified (made right with God) by works. The Greek word translated to “justified” here doesn’t only mean to be rendered or counted as being righteous it also means to be evinced or shown to be righteous. What James is saying here is that we are shown to be righteous by our works. Our works are evidence of our being made righteous by God, not evidence of our faith because he has already said in verse 14 that faith without works is not a saving faith which indicates that it is possible to have faith without works. The popular saying that “faith produces works” sounds nice but isn’t biblical. James reenforces this again in verse 17 when he says that faith without works is dead and yet again in verse 20 when he says that faith without works is useless. So it is quite apparent that faith does not always produce works. John 15:2 also supports the notion that faith does not always produce works. Jesus said The Father cuts off every branch IN ME that beareth not fruit. No one can be in Christ without first having faith. After believing we receive the Holy Spirit which will enable us to do good works but even then it’s still not guaranteed that we will adhere to His guidance as Paul points out in Ephesians 4:30. Even after we are “sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption” we can still grieve the Him in disobedience. Being sealed with the Holy Spirit is not a guarantee of salvation it simply means that we will always feel a conviction of our sins because we have received the knowledge from God. That knowledge never goes away. It’s always there urging us to repent and turn back to God. So many people quote Ephesians 4:30 as evidence of being “sealed with the Holy Spirit” thereby implying that we cannot lose our salvation and completely disregard the first portion of that verse where Paul says “do not grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you have been sealed unto the day of redemption”. Throughout that entire portion of chapter 4 (Ephesians 4:17-32) and on into the beginning of chapter 5 (Ephesians 5:1-6) Paul is warning “the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ” (Ephesians 1:1) not to turn back to a sinful way of life and even goes so far as to say to them in chapter 5

“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭NASB

By this we can clearly see that being sealed with the Holy Spirit does not guarantee works or salvation. Therefore faith does not necessarily produce works nor does faith alone save anyone. Salvation is the result of faith and love which will undoubtedly produce works. Faith in Christ enables us to do the works and love for God and love for others others motivates us to do them. Look at the examples of works given in James 2:14-16. They’re all works resulting from love. You’ll see the same example in Matthew 25:31-46 in Jesus’ parable of the sheep & goats. Again all the works He mentioned are works resulting from love. So many people get hung up on is it faith or is it faith with works, and they completely miss the whole motivation of love.

It's not helpful to list so many scriptures at one time,when we're trying to establish what the Bible says about one particular doctrine.

From my perspective, i just saw you start with a premise then add a big bunch of scriptures and apply them as you see fit to support your premise. This is like forcing scripture to say what you want it to.

I'd prefer to deal with one at a time, such as when God described what you hold up to be the most important ingredient in winning salvation. That being good works, which encompass love as well. But God calls what you hold up as the highest imperative for salvation "FILTHY RAGS".

So with all due respect I have to side with God on this one and reject your doctrine as ill informed at best.

 

[Dan1988]

Next I’ll address total depravity. Yes we are all naturally in a fallen state as a result of Adam’s sin. We have received Adam’s sinful nature but what we have not received is the guilt of Adam’s sin. The verses in the link you provided don’t indicate that we have received any guilt as a result of Adam’s sin. I’m confident that you are aware that the scriptures say several times that we will be judged according to OUR DEEDS. We are not judged according to Adam’s deeds.

It's true, we will all be judged according to our deeds which are far worse than Adams and he died on the day he sinned. So the rest of us are born dead, before we even commit our first sin.

God said, "for all have sinned". Sorry He didn't make any exceptions here. All includes you and everyone else. So it's already a given, we all died on the day Adam sinned and please don't say Adam didn't die the day he sinned as this would make God out to be a liar.

 

[Dan1988]

Next I’ll address total depravity. Yes we are all naturally in a fallen state as a result of Adam’s sin. We have received Adam’s sinful nature but what we have not received is the guilt of Adam’s sin. The verses in the link you provided don’t indicate that we have received any guilt as a result of Adam’s sin. I’m confident that you are aware that the scriptures say several times that we will be judged according to OUR DEEDS. We are not judged according to Adam’s deeds.

Sorry bro, it's 2:13 am here in Sydney. I need to get some shut eye, so I'm going to put my sword don for now and continue the battle after I get some rest, cheers

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are too many to fit in one post, so I've just added this link which deals with the basics. Please consider these before we get get too deep, as there's a lot more to consider.
Reformed Theology Memory Verses

Next I will address unconditional election. First I will begin by quoting Acts 10:34-35.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: “ I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB

The Greek word translated to “welcome” here means to be accepted or acceptable. God enables man to believe and do what is right and those who comply with His will are accepted. Some people will say that what this verse is saying is that only those who have been accepted by God can fear Him and do what is right but that ignores verse 34. If God has only accepted certain people who can fear Him and do what is right then He has shown partiality towards some and not others. We see this exact same message again in Romans 2.

“There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:9-11‬ ‭NASB

Some also say that this means that God does not show partiality between Jews or Gentiles but that’s not what Paul said. Both Paul and Peter specifically said that God does not show partiality period. If God is choosing a select group over others then He is showing partiality. 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 also support that God does not show partiality.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB

Some will say that by “all men” what Paul really meant was all nations but that’s not what he said. That’s changing what he actually said to support a particular doctrine.

“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB

Many will combat this verse by saying that this only refers to His elect and that God doesn’t want any of His elect to perish but that brings us right back to God shoeing partiality. So let’s examine this along with Romans 2 again which is another parallel message to this one.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭NASB

Notice that God’s kindness, tolerance, and patience is leading these Gentiles to repentance. This is a reference to God’s grace He has bestowed upon them, and yet by their stubbornness and unrepentant heart they are storing up God’s wrath and righteous judgement upon themselves. This is not only an affront to unconditional election but also an affront to irresistible grace and evanescent grace. If these Gentiles are storing up the wrath of God upon themselves despite God’s patience leading them to repentance then irresistible grace goes right out the window. If this is an example of evanescent grace then this would mean that God’s kindness and patience is not actually intended to lead them to repentance which is contradictory to what Paul said. Now if 2 Peter 3:9 were only to God’s elect then Romans 2 would also only be to God’s elect but then there’s the problem with these “elect” storing up God’s wrath and judgement against them on judgement day. The elect aren’t supposed to face God’s wrath and judgement on judgement day according to Calvin’s theology. So it doesn’t line up at all with what the scriptures ACTUALLY say. It takes quite a bit of bending the scriptures to support Calvin’s doctrines.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There are too many to fit in one post, so I've just added this link which deals with the basics. Please consider these before we get get too deep, as there's a lot more to consider.
Reformed Theology Memory Verses

Next I’ll address irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints in the same message here. Now I’ve already started explaining against this in my last post with Romans 2 where despite God’s kindness, tolerance, and patience He is leading the Gentiles to repentance but because of their unrepentant heart they are storing up God’s wrath and judgement on judgement day. Before I go any further into this subject I would like to address the verses that were provided in the link you quoted. John 6:37 is very simple. What many people fail to realize is that the Greek word translated to “comes or cometh” is only used in the present and imperfect tense. This is explicitly stated in the Greek lexicons. What this means is that only those who presently and continuously come to Him, He will not cast out. It doesn’t mean that anyone who has ever came to Him, He will not cast out because that would directly contradict John 15:2 and John 15:6 where Jesus says that The Father cuts off every branch in Me that beareth not fruit and He says anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. So Jesus is specifically saying that some whom The Father has allowed to come to Him will not remain in Him and they will be cast away and cast into the fire to be burned. Now before someone starts to quote John 6:39 I’m going to explain that the word “will” in that verse also means desire. It’s the same word used in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 the only difference is this is the noun form of the word instead of the verb used in 1 Timothy. Obviously we know that God has not deemed that all men will be saved. God desires all men to be saved, it’s not something that God has declared to happen. John 6:39 is simply saying that it is The Father’s desire is that Jesus should lose none and that He raise them up on the last day.

The next verse I want to point out is Revelation 2:20-21.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB

Now if grace were irresistible then Jezebel would not have been able to resist repentance. If Jezebel has not been granted grace then Jesus wouldn’t have expected her to repent even going so far as to give her time to repent because He knows that without grace she is utterly incapable of repentance. Jezebel is another example of Paul’s message in Romans 2. Jesus’ kindness and patience is leading her to repentance but because of her stubborn unrepentant heart she is storing up God’s wrath.

Another indication is in Jesus’ explanation of the parable of the sower.

“Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:13‬ ‭NASB

Many people will say that anyone who falls away never truly believed. Well Jesus just said right here that some will believe and fall away. The sorcerer Simon Magus is a prime example. The scriptures say that Simon Magus heard the gospel and believed.

“But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:12-13‬ ‭NASB

Simon later fell away and fell to conjuring demons and practicing black magic. I won’t get into the details of that because they’re not recorded in the scriptures but they were recorded by the church.

Of course there’s always John 15:1-10 where Jesus tells His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him and even explains the consequences of failing to abide in Him and even goes further by telling them what they can expect IF they abide in Him. We all know that these men were true believers, and yet Jesus felt it was necessary to tell them to abide in Him, explaining why, and the consequences of what will happen if they don’t, and what they can expect if they do. So if grace is irresistible, how is it possible for someone to fail to abide in Christ resulting in condemnation? No one can come to Christ unless they have been given grace by The Father. if grace is irresistible then John 15:6 is impossible.

I’ll give just one more example of falling from grace which is in Galatians 5:4.

“You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:4‬ ‭NASB

It really doesn’t get any clearer than this. Grace is undoubtedly resistible and a person is capable of falling from grace and being severed from Christ. There’s ample evidence of this in the scriptures.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not helpful to list so many scriptures at one time,when we're trying to establish what the Bible says about one particular doctrine.

From my perspective, i just saw you start with a premise then add a big bunch of scriptures and apply them as you see fit to support your premise. This is like forcing scripture to say what you want it to.

I'd prefer to deal with one at a time, such as when God described what you hold up to be the most important ingredient in winning salvation. That being good works, which encompass love as well. But God calls what you hold up as the highest imperative for salvation "FILTHY RAGS".

So with all due respect I have to side with God on this one and reject your doctrine as ill informed at best.

Our good works are only filthy rags in His sight because of our sin. When we come to Christ and our sins have been atoned for our good works are pleasing in God’s sight.

“For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭NASB

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not helpful to list so many scriptures at one time,when we're trying to establish what the Bible says about one particular doctrine.

I felt like if I quote one single verse that I might be accused of cherry picking. So I posted several verses that support my position.

 

[BNR32FAN]

From my perspective, i just saw you start with a premise then add a big bunch of scriptures and apply them as you see fit to support your premise. This is like forcing scripture to say what you want it to.

If you feel that I have erred in my explanation please point out my mistakes.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's true, we will all be judged according to our deeds which are far worse than Adams and he died on the day he sinned. So the rest of us are born dead, before we even commit our first sin.

God said, "for all have sinned". Sorry He didn't make any exceptions here. All includes you and everyone else. So it's already a given, we all died on the day Adam sinned and please don't say Adam didn't die the day he sinned as this would make God out to be a liar.

I don’t disagree with this.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sorry bro, it's 2:13 am here in Sydney. I need to get some shut eye, so I'm going to put my sword don for now and continue the battle after I get some rest, cheers

Have a blessed evening

 

[lismore]

I have no idea but I guarantee you it's not enough. I've listened to him a few times and he doesn't follow the word of God.

He's a popular motivational speaker, when I was in AOG we used to have to listen to his DVDs in the house group. His style of preaching seems to be light on the gospel and on doctrine. Popularity rather than truth. However it's when he goes off script in an interview for example that the mask really slips. You can find interviews where he comes out in favour of same sex marriage or says that there are other ways to be saved than Jesus.

The Lord Jesus warned us to watch out for wolves in sheep's clothing (Matthew 7:15). That's a command of the Lord. I would submit that Joel Olsteen is one to watch out for.

His wealth comes from his popularity. His popularity comes from telling people what they want to hear.

God Bless

 

[nolidad]

Joel's messages are motivational. The psychological approach isn't suited for most. It's like listening to Oprah. You need a certain measure of comfort and ease to apply it. If you don't have a lot of cares that's probably enough.

I don't listen to him but I've read a few of his books. I'm not a fan of heavy messages or brimstone. There's nothing wrong with them. But I prefer a different style.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

We each have a favorite style.

But then Osteen should stop saying He is a church and that hsi are positive thinking meetings to motivste people to think positively.

 

[bèlla]

We each have a favorite style.

But then Osteen should stop saying He is a church and that hsi are positive thinking meetings to motivste people to think positively.

Maybe he's a church for positive thinkers? I don't know. I used to watch Oprah and there's a certain demographic for that message. I'm not talking self-help in general. But one suited for an affluent audience. I'm not suggesting that's the whole of his followers.

Yours in His Service,

~bella

 

[Andrewn]

Maybe he's a church for positive thinkers? I don't know. I used to watch Oprah and there's a certain demographic for that message. I'm not talking self-help in general. But one suited for an affluent audience. I'm not suggesting that's the whole of his followers.

You're implying that there is a Christian message and there is a different message suited for those who have a great deal of money (affluent). Is the Christian message not suited for positive thinkers?

 

[Dan1988]

If you feel that I have erred in my explanation please point out my mistakes.

It's all very well to quote scriptures which speak abut the necessity of doing good works. We all know that good works follow, when the Holy Spirit takes up residence in a person's soul. This is how we tell the difference between true believers and those who falsely profess to be Christians. Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruits" He was saying that a true Christian won't live like a devil.

So I agree with everything you've said, the only thing we seem to disagree on is how a person is saved. I get the sense that you believe we are saved by trying to obey God's commands and doing the best we can do to please God by our good works. But when I study the Bible I don't find that we are saved in that way, I find those things come after God saves and and does His work of transformation in our life.

So our only point of contention is regarding what we believe about salvation. Is it given to us by God's grace, meaning there's nothing we can do to earn it or deserve it by doing good works. Or is it as a result of us making a big effort to obey God and do good works to earn His favour and cause Him to reward us with salvation.

The Church has been divided over this question since the beginning and it came to a head around 500 years ago with the Reformation, when the authority of the papacy was challenged. The feud was was over the authority of God's Word and the authority of the pope. The issue was never resolved and the Church is still divided over it to this day.

It really boils down to what we believe, do we take God at His Word and accept His Word as the highest authority. Or do we accept the authority of man, over God's Word. The Bibles says that God is not the author of confusion, so all of this confusion and conflict between the denominations is not of God. The enemy brings confusion and conflict, into the Church.