Joe Biden elected 46th president of the United States

[mmksparbud]

A lot of human occurrences are like an eddy in a broad river. It makes little or no difference in the flow, and the water in the eddy will eventually continue to move downstream, but to a leaf caught in that eddy, it looks significant for a while. If the eddy does have any significance, it may have nothing to do with the leaf at all, but with something else unseen below the surface.

What all this is intended to teach is that a king is like a little kid suspended high in the air on a teeter-totter with a big kid on the other end holding the little kid in the air.

It might seem to be great to the little kid to be so high, but that little kid had better worry about the big kid deciding to step off....

You have a poets heart.

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't believe that God sits up in a heavenly booth somewhere pulling levers to micromanage everything that happens on earth. I do believe that he allows us the free will to make our own choices as well as the free will to experience the consequences of those choices. Perhaps on some occasions he chooses to intervene, but I'm not going to blame him for personally putting either Hitler or Trump in place. That was our own human foolishness within the democratic systems we invented. We can't blame God for our own poor choices when we had the full freedom at some point to make different choices that would have led to different consequences.

When it comes to kings, the general population usually doesn't have a choice.

 

[pitabread]

Well of course it doesn't!! At the time it was written there were no democratic elections! There were kings and such. The point is---He is still in control over the whole world.

If God has "control over the whole world", then that has some serious implications for free will and the very basis of Christian theology.

But I don't think you actually mean that, given you further state:

There are things that must come to pass in this country. And as I said, God doesn't force. He suggests, and guides.

I don't know what "suggests" and "guides" is supposed to mean here. On the one hand, you're trying to claim that God is in control over everything. But then you seem to immediately walk back from that proclamation.

Guidance and suggestions are not the same thing as control.

Satan has a certain amount of control over the planet when it was handed it to him at the fall.

Which contradicts your claim that "[God] is still in control over the whole world".

As for Trump, yes, God put him in, God has taken him out.

On what basis? You've already contradicted yourself repeatedly, so it's really hard to follow what you think God is or isn't actually doing.

 

[RDKirk]

If God has "control over the whole world", then that has some serious implications for free will and the very basis of Christian theology.

Free will is not, by any means "the very basis of Christian theology." Free will does not even appear as a concept in the bible. Scripture actually argues against it. It's a Greek concept that was foreign to the middle eastern worldview.

 

[pitabread]

Free will is not, by any means "the very basis of Christian theology." Free will does not even appear as a concept in the bible. Scripture actually argues against it. It's a Greek concept that was foreign to the middle eastern worldview.

Lack of free will renders the concept of salvation moot. I know there are various schools of thought on this and that the concept of free will is a discussion unto itself.

However, I have seen more than a few Christians on this very forum argue that salvation is a choice each person makes. Thus, implying that free will to make that choice is a necessity.

 

[Yttrium]

However, I have seen more than a few Christians on this very forum argue that salvation is a choice each person makes. Thus, implying that free will to make that choice is a necessity.

Unless they're Calvinists, who believe that God chooses in advance who will go to heaven, and the chosen receive faith by the grace of God. No free will there.

 

[pitabread]

Unless they're Calvinists, who believe that God chooses who will go to heaven, and the chosen receive faith by the grace of God. No free will there.

And I have seen some make that claim as well.

Of course, when Christians can't seem to come to agreement about what seem like relatively important doctrinal issues, it makes me wonder why non-believers should even care.

 

[RDKirk]

And I have seen some make that claim as well.

Of course, when Christians can't seem to come to agreement about what seem like relatively important doctrinal issues, it makes me wonder why non-believers should even care.

I'm not a Calvinist (which involves a lot of doctrine saying many things), but the case for "God makes the choice" is more easily made directly from scripture than otherwise.

 

[pitabread]

I'm not a Calvinist (which involves a lot of doctrine saying many things), but the case for "God makes the choice" is more easily made directly from scripture than otherwise.

That's something for you and your fellow Christians to sort out then. As a non-believer (and one who finds Christian theology fundamentally illogical), it's a non-starter for me.

 

[Andrewn]

I'm not a Calvinist (which involves a lot of doctrine saying many things), but the case for "God makes the choice" is more easily made directly from scripture than otherwise.

This is a Calvinist opinion and Calvinism is considered heretical by Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Arminian Protestants. This had to be said here.

 

[RDKirk]

This makes you a Calvinist regardless of whether you like this label or not and Calvinism is considered heretical by Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, and Arminian Protestants. This had to be said here.

No, it doesn't do that to me at all.

I said: "...the case for 'God makes the choice' is more easily made directly from scripture."

I'm not sola scriptura.

 

[bekkilyn]

I believe that God's plan is the restoration of ALL of creation including the salvation of the entire world and everyone in it. However, I am not a universalist as I also believe that individuals must have the free choice to reject God. I also believe that at some point, God will make all these things absolutely clear, even to unbelievers, so that everyone can make an *informed* choice rather than having 20,000 different ideas of salvation. Why anyone would choose to reject God at this point, after truly knowing him beyond any doubt, I wouldn't know, but the choice must exist, the same as the tree of knowledge of good and evil had to exist in the garden.

So yes, God makes the choice to save, but he also allows us the choice to reject.

 

[mmksparbud]

If God has "control over the whole world", then that has some serious implications for free will and the very basis of Christian theology.

But I don't think you actually mean that, given you further state:



I don't know what "suggests" and "guides" is supposed to mean here. On the one hand, you're trying to claim that God is in control over everything. But then you seem to immediately walk back from that proclamation.

Guidance and suggestions are not the same thing as control.



Which contradicts your claim that "[God] is still in control over the whole world".



On what basis? You've already contradicted yourself repeatedly, so it's really hard to follow what you think God is or isn't actually doing.

There is no contradiction. I clearly said He does not force, He suggests and guides. What part of that is so difficult to understand? He does not force, but He can alter circumstances---WW2 was won by snowflakes. You can look that up, snowstorm came up at the right time. Stuff like that. The contradictions are in your agnostic brain. Your opinion bothers me not one bit./ I know my God, you don't even think there is one and have no concept of His character.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The only thing you can do is scoff at what you can not comprehend.

 

[pitabread]

There is no contradiction. I clearly said He does not force, He suggests and guides. What part of that is so difficult to understand?

Your own claim is that "As for Trump, yes, God put him in, God has taken him out." This doesn't sound like mere guidance or suggestions; this sounds like direct control (which you also referenced when you said, "He is still in control over the whole world.")

Perhaps you are equating guidance, suggestion and control, but those are not synonyms. Those words mean different things.

He does not force, but He can alter circumstances---WW2 was won by snowflakes. You can look that up, snowstorm came up at the right time. Stuff like that.

Which again conjures up the notion of God being a glorified SimCity player. You might not like that characterization of your deity, but this is the impression you continue to convey.

Your opinion bothers me not one bit.

That's not what you said back in post #282:

I am not, but I will defend myself and our God to anyone that denigrates Him, so you can stop with your foolish opinions about Him and I will shut up---Deal?

 

[driewerf]

I agree on that, but we both know the mail-in vote are predominantly Democrats. Of course I want to see them thrown out for cheating.

It's fine that you finally admit that you simply want as much democrat votes thrown out. Trump can't win fairly.

 

[RDKirk]

I believe that God's plan is the restoration of ALL of creation including the salvation of the entire world and everyone in it. However, I am not a universalist as I also believe that individuals must have the free choice to reject God. I also believe that at some point, God will make all these things absolutely clear, even to unbelievers, so that everyone can make an *informed* choice rather than having 20,000 different ideas of salvation. Why anyone would choose to reject God at this point, after truly knowing him beyond any doubt, I wouldn't know, but the choice must exist, the same as the tree of knowledge of good and evil had to exist in the garden.

So yes, God makes the choice to save, but he also allows us the choice to reject.

I think in some way that is correct. But I would point out that "free choice" is not the same thing as "free will."

Free will is not merely an option between servitude (even to the most ideal master) and damnation.

 

[driewerf]

There you go bringing up the law again. It seems to be lost on some that the democrats stand accused of voter fraud and even for plotting a coup...

The Democrats stand accused. Pray tell when and where were million people accused? What jurisdiction?

Democrats have a major credibility issue they will need to clear.

O really? At a certain moment prior the elections the GOP had initiated 40 cases all of them for reducing access to poll stations, throwing out votes etc.
That is a credibility problem.
Voting lawsuits pile up across US as election approaches

 

[bekkilyn]

I think in some way that is correct. But I would point out that "free choice" is not the same thing as "free will."

Free will is not merely an option between servitude (even to the most ideal master) and damnation.

Good point. I think many of us tend to use both of those terms interchangeably.

 

[mmksparbud]

Your own claim is that "As for Trump, yes, God put him in, God has taken him out." This doesn't sound like mere guidance or suggestions; this sounds like direct control (which you also referenced when you said, "He is still in control over the whole world.")

Perhaps you are equating guidance, suggestion and control, but those are not synonyms. Those words mean different things.

He does both or either depending on the circumstances. Read the book of Daniel. He alters circumstances to make a person think, or to entirely remove with interference. Only He is capable of making the decision as to when to actively interfere, when to let the situation ride, and when to merely suggest. He nows the past present and future so He alone has the "big picture."

Which again conjures up the notion of God being a glorified SimCity player. You might not like that characterization of your deity, but this is the impression you continue to convey.

You do not answer to me for your opinion of God---ever. We all will answer to God.

That's not what you said back in post #282:

I said you had foolish opinions about God, I did not say they bothered me. Your opinions do not affect my life in any way. But I do feel a need to correct a false opinion of Him. Not that what I say will change the ideas of any agnostic or atheist. I can't change anybody, only God does that. All I can do is state what I think. Debates with you guys are pretty useless and I usually end up walking away as it becomes boringly predictable, repeating the same thing over and over only to have you guys keep asking or saying the same thing also.

 

[LostMarbels]

It's fine that you finally admit that you simply want as much democrat votes thrown out.

'Finally'? Where have you been?

Trump can't win fairly.

You are welcome to your opinion. I really do not care if you view it thusly, so as long as it gets done. No illegal votes should be counted.