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Featured Job

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by MotherFirefly, Jul 8, 2019.

  1. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

    United States
    I gave you an answer, you dismissed it outright and bashed it. I've seen it many times before.
  2. Messerve

    Messerve Well-Known Member

    United States
    Very good point! Death seems like a cruel and painful thing to us. But only God sees the whole story. Perhaps from His perspective it isn't actually as bad as we feel it is.

    Don't take that as my support for death, however!!
  3. MotherFirefly

    MotherFirefly Well-Known Member

    United States
    You seem offended. I apologize as that is not my intention... however... You took two verses and added many assumptions taken to very far lengths and came to a conclusion that has nothing to do with the rest of the story... or anything I was asking... I'm sorry that I fail to see how that counts as an answer, or even what you are answering.

    So... are we saying that God wants us to think it was a blessing for the children and servants to be killed?

    This becomes especially confusing adding it to the assumption that his children were living sinful lives. Would that not mean they would go to hell upon being killed?
    If the assumptions are true, why would God end a bunch of young peoples' lives without giving them a chance to be saved?

    I'm glad he didn't sacrifice me when I was young and dumb.

    I notice everyone has not bothered mentioning the servants... do we not want to admit the chances they were mostly innocent and killed for.. what again?

    The story is quite tragic.
    For everyone but Job... who received twice as much as he began with at "merely" the cost of his children and servants lives.

    I am rather new to all of this, so I understand if my opinions are worth less than others' opinions. However, I also don't understand how others don't see what I am seeing here. Or perhaps why they won't admit to seeing it.
  4. topher694

    topher694 Go Turtle!

    United States
    Offense is overused. I'm not offended. Disrespectful would be a better word. I did take time to make a reasonably detailed response in an attempt to give a perspective not often considered which DOES provide insight into the story and your response was dripping with sarcasm... and not the good natured kind:

    You minimized what I wrote to make it easier to dismiss:

    What I added is what we know about God's nature from other scripture which is a very standard practice called hermeneutics. Along with a little common sense which is done all the time in interpreting scripture.

    This strongly implies that you have already made up your mind and have little interest in considering explainations, but instead apparently, criticizing them.

    I said repeatedly this was PART of the answer, nevertheless what I outlined has strong implications for the entire book, but not if it is minimized, criticized and immediately dismissed because you've already decided on the answer before posting. I'm not going to do an entire bible study on the matter... especially with someone who shows zero interest in listening, I've got actual messages to prepare for people who want to learn.
  5. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    It has a two fold meaning. First it generally applies to how believers face adversaries. We need to learn to trust God in all difficulty situations.

    Second, in a stricter sense. It applies those who already know God, such as Job. They may be put in a situation where Satan has a strong influence but God on the other hand allows them to be handed over to the devil. They need to submit so without actually understanding God's motive. God has a higher purpose behind the scene. This is so even under the superficial human comprehension that God is betting with Satan for fun. God already told Job that it's not a betting for fund somehow, God said Job doesn't need to know the "why" because God has a higher mind.

    The above even applies to Jesus when He prayed God to take the cup away. It applies to all apostles who martyred themselves. They never know why they have to be martyred. To them it's more like a betting between God and the devil, with them stuck in the middle.

    God on the other hand has a higher purpose behind the scene. Martyrdom of the eyewitnesses somehow is the strongest backup for a valid human witnessing. Today, we have video and audio recordings to backup our testimonies. In ancient times, the strongest testimony is for the eyewitnesses to martyr themselves to testify the truth they have witnessed. Do they know that their martyrdom is a necessity? They don't, only God knows.

    To put it another way, if a prophet has to fully understand everything before he carries out God's commands it doesn't seem things work out this way. That is to say, if a messenger has to understand every single bit of the contents before he's willing to deliver a message, things don't seem to work out that way. Sometimes, a messenger's job is just to deliver a parcel without questioning its contents. If they need advice on carrying out the task, then read Job!
  6. MotherFirefly

    MotherFirefly Well-Known Member

    United States
    I guess my problem is, I can't stop asking questions.
    I expect to find truth in the Bible. Because that's what everyone preaches. However, feel good messages and ear tickling aside, whenever I read the Bible for myself all I find is more questions.
    When I present these questions to other Christians, I am told not to ask questions and just blindly believe what everyone else believes. At least the parts they can agree on, anyway.

    Instead of finding truth it's speculation, assumptions, and stop wasting your (read : our) time because you could never understand it.

    Seems more like you find your own truth and that's good enough until next Sunday.

    It's very discouraging.
  7. His student

    His student Well-Known Member

    United States
    I think you're seeing exactly what you're supposed to see and what I have seen since early on (12 yrs. old) in my walk (I'll be 74 soon).

    IMO, anyone who can't see human life, with all of it's tragedies, from creation, through the fall, the flood, the life of Job, the death of Jesus, the dark ages, the holocaust, the Tribulation, the post Millennial rebellion, and on through the final judgment - as a bit of a set up - either doesn't believe the scriptures or just isn't paying attention.

    Or perhaps they dare not admit it - thinking that to do so would be to blaspheme God. Such is not the case or He would not have made it so abundantly clear to us concerning His sovereignty - even in the playing out of evil.

    You do well to question God in honesty. His children do not grow by hiding their heads in the sand.

    Now, before anyone unloads on me - I am a born again Christian, have been a teaching elder and involved in church leadership for most of my life. I love the Lord with all my heart and trust Him completely with my life and that of those I love.

    I believe that the book of Job (particularly the beginning) is provided for us for simple reasons. God wants us to see:

    1. That He's totally in charge of every event that happens - even of Satan himself.

    2. That there is a purpose (however obscure) to every tragedy as well as to every good thing.

    3. That there are epic battles among angelic principalities and powers playing out beyond our vision concerning good and evil.

    4. That we are to understand those things without a doubt that they are true and love and trust Him still. "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." Job 13:15

    Easier said than done - I know.

    But He has promised to some day wipe away every tear and explain it all to each of us.

    He has given us one more overriding truth to go with those four.

    Christ suffered, died and bore sin for Job. He suffered, died and bore sin for you and me. God took the punishment for all the evil done in all of history upon Himself.

    As hard as it is to fathom - the pain suffered in the book of Job, the dark ages, the holocaust, and in the life of every human being who ever lived or ever will live pales in comparison to pain suffered by God Himself for the sins of the world.

    I can trust a God like that. YOU can trust a God like that.

    Though He slay us - we can trust Him and maintain our ways before Him.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  8. Moshia

    Moshia New Member

    United States
  9. Moshia

    Moshia New Member

    United States
    I have some comments on your response:

    1. That statement is not even Biblical. Where did you find that He just kills people to keep them from something bad? No where. And additionally, I will repeat that statement in different words: God is so good He will just kill you. And look at a hurt world with much suffering. Why doesn't that logic apply there? If you look at Acts 10:38 "How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him"

    God's solution to bad things happening is Himself. He comes in and saves people, frees them from bondage and oppression.

    2. I like it.

    3. That's true, Job never cursed God. But Job did curse himself in Job 3:1

    4. I agree with most of this statement, but the "there is a reason we don't see" is also not backed by the Bible. Maybe you're thinking of Romans 8:28 verse.

    If we take a step back and look at the previous verses, we can start from 26 (However I do recommend reading more than just a few):

    "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

    The highlighted areas are important: The previous verses are talking about PRAYER.
    If we look at the conjunction And, we can see that the statement preceding it and after it are connected.

    In other words, when we pray, God intercedes our prayers and starts making situations (the bad and even worse) work out for our good. This is a promise only for the believers tho!
    As it says "... for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

    Not everybody loves God. This is something only believers have the amazing promise of.

    5. Not biblical. In the old testament, YES. But in the New Testament, Not quite. I'm not saying we know EVERYTHING about God, that's impossible in this life.

    However, your statement is not biblical for the New Testament believer as it says:

    1 Corinthians 2:16 states: "or, "Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."

    We HAVE the mind of Christ. It almost sounds like heresy to say that in church unfortunately.

    Again, I'm not saying we "know EVERYTHING", but we do have God's mind and we have seen in Jesus that God and Satan are different, and that Satan comes to STEAL, KILL, and DESTROY, John 10:10.

    My main point is: We won't understand everything about God, but we have the mind of God, and we have the Bible, and Jesus' example and His words. He said that anything that is bad = Satan.

    This is a doctrine that has many people confused.
  10. Moshia

    Moshia New Member

    United States
  11. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    To me, the Bible is always a test of faith. It's good to have questions. And I find that more I can stay closer to God, the more I can get to the answers. I think that I have more answers this way than other Christians on average.
    Do you attend any church? I think that the key lies in how close you are with God and other Christians. Will pray for you.

    Moreover, sometimes we may have to accept that an answer is not available to us temporarily, even science has a lot of unanswerable questions. We will slowly discover those answers one by one.

    God Bless.
  12. def

    def Member Supporter

    The book of Job taught me that Satan is the prince (John 12:31) and god of this world (2 Cor 4:4). It teaches me the extend of Satan's power: he works evil, kills and destroys, and tempt people to do evil. But Satan's power is limited - do not harm him (verse 1:12).

    Jesus appeared to destroy Satan's evil works (1 John 3:8), and God will eventually crush him (Romans 16:20). Meanwhile, we are to arm ourselves with the Armour of God (Ephesians 6:11) and beware of the prowling lion, looking for anyone he can devour (1 Peter 5:8).

    It seems cruel that God allows Job's children to die to teach us about Satan. You can say the same of many disciples that were martyred to bring us the good news.

    I hope it helps.
  13. Moshia

    Moshia New Member

    United States
    I have gotten fed up with uninspired answers as well.

    This book used to throw me everywhere. It seemed to be such a contradiction to the character of God.

    However, I will go down your message and give you answers.

    1. God did boast about Job, HOWEVER, He did not bring him up to set him up for testing as many people think.

    It says in Job 1:8 "And Jehovah saith unto the Adversary, `Hast thou set thy heart against My servant Job because there is none like him in the land, a man perfect and upright, fearing God, and turning aside from evil?'" - Ylt

    Most people read the other versions that read: "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil."

    When you read this, as an English speaker we tend to think "Oh! God was mentioning Job to Satan for a 'purpose'" or something weird like that.

    But looking at a literal translation, we see God was just simply pointing out that Satan had his heart against Job. AND looking at the verse from this perspective, do you see how the non-literal translation could be read both ways? (Nothing wrong with non literal translation)

    Satan never in the end "makes a bet" with God, he just states that Job is only in the relationship for what he can get out of it. Then satan goes on to say that if God just destroys what Job has, Job will curse Him.

    Now, when God says “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”
    people think that this means that this is where God "allowed" satan to attack Job.

    However, this is not true in the sense that it is interpreted. (I'll explain below)

    Before we move on there are a few things to consider while reading this book:

    1. Job was "bragged" about by God, but so were many other people like David for example.
    Just because God "bragged" on them doesn't mean they were sinless. Remember that.

    2. There was no covenant between God and Job as Job was before the Old Covenant and there was nothing covenant wise to empower Job to come against the enemy or "protect" him from the attacks of the enemy.

    3. 2 Corinthians 4:4 - "Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. ..." I bet you might have never seen this verse. But we find out that Satan actually is the "god" (Small g) of this world. (Quick note: This happened when Adam and Eve fell. They gave their God given authority to the enemy)

    Satan is also referred to as the "Prince and power of the air" in Ephesians 2:2.

    Keep those in mind.

    Back on track:

    When God said "...Behold, all that he has is in your power,..." The meaning of this statement can be understood by the verses made in point 3. And just for note: The word "Behold" means simply: Look.
    This may sound like "Look Satan, what he has is in your power" in our modern day language.

    Next point: "Protection from attacks" is not necessarily something we new testament believers have either. But we do have the power and authority of Jesus to come against the enemy and "destroy" the works of the evil one. (There are many references on this but one good one, just to keep things short, is Mark 16).

    So in a sense we do have protection? I don't know how to word this, but anyways, there was nothing to stop satan from attacking, but there was that part where God said "...only do not lay a hand on his person." This is the interesting part.

    Some other translations say something like: "but don't hurt Job", "don't lay a hand on him" etc.
    (Look up Biblehub for this verse "Job 1-12", and you can see many translations back to back.)

    The funny thing is.... Satan strikes Job with Boils in Job 2:7, right after satan appeared before God for a second time and had a very similar conversation.
    In other words... Satan was told to not strike job in chapter 1, but in chapter 2, he strikes Job. The perfect example of someone being disobedient to God.

    Now why didn't satan kill Job? Remember the whole point satan was trying to prove... He was trying to prove that if Job lost everything, he would curse God. Satan didn't have any interest in killing him.

    Now I'm also not trying to say that God didn't have anything to do with protecting Job at all or something, but this is something to consider. (I'm still learning too)

    Closing remarks:

    God is good, Satan is not.

    Some awesome verses to help you with general things (Please read until end too. There are more answers to some questions not addressed in your post):

    2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay the promise, as some esteem slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but all to come to repentance."

    -God doesn't want people to go to hell. (The doctrine that he just randomly picks who He wants or something like that is not even backed by scripture)

    And just in-case someone mentions Romans 8:29:

    The verse says: "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" NASB

    Let me explain what this means:

    God knows EVERYTHING, and He knew who would receive the Gospel and become His children/followers. And God predestined His followers to become like Jesus.

    The predestination mentioned is His people conforming to the image of His Son.

    This verse is highly misunderstood. And people make weird doctrine out of it.

    I like another translation of this verse as well: "For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" NLT

    Now what about Romans? Doesn't God say all things happen because they are for our good?

    No. That is not what it says.

    Lets look at Romans 8:26-28 to understand what is being said:

    "In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

    The key to understand Romans 8:28 is the preceding verses. It's talking about prayer.
    Since my response is very long I'll keep it short:

    When we pray, God intercedes our prayers through His Spirit and makes whatever event that is happening, or the effects of what has happened (bad or really bad) start to change course and turn around to become something good.

    Note: This does not mean He WANTED it to happen.

    Also: This promise is only for believers.
    As it says in the verse: "for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose."

    Not everybody loves God.

    And just look at non-believers who get killed for drinking and driving, etc. They ended up in hell. It did not work together for their good. (This is just an example).

    As we can tell from the verse previously mentioned, 2 Peter 3:9, His will for people does not always happen.
    There are more verses that prove God is not "In control" of everything that happens.

    Some of them are:

    Acts: 10:38 says "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him."

    John 10:10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

    My point is... If God "ordained" these people to be inflicted by satan, then why is Jesus going around freeing people from him?

    Jesus said in Mark 3:25 "If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand."

    So... If God was doing/allowing the bad things, then Jesus would be going against the Father, and that would be a divided house. (Granted the verse was Jesus' response to the pharisee's accusing Him of casting out demons with demons. But that doesn't change the applicability of the statement)

    And why did Jesus say satan comes to do all these bad things? Why didn't He say it was God who does them/allows them?

    The answer is because Jesus is the exact image of God, and God's will for humanity is what we see in Jesus... He has love towards humanity. Thats why it says He so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life in John 3:16.

    I hope you the best.

    Don't ever be discouraged.

    My rule is: What did Jesus say/do?

    Jesus is the perfect example...

    If there is something old testament/new testament that is troubling us, does our "theological view" match that of Jesus?

    If not.... Throw it away!
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  14. Alithis

    Alithis Disciple of Jesus .

    New Zealand
    First.all scripture must be read with one asking GOD for understanding...not men.

    One of the aspects that confuses people is the way the english has worded the start of Job .
    The english makes it look like God is setting Job up. Like he drew the devils attention to Job .

    But in english, iv heard it taught ..the essence of that conversation is misconstrued.

    So in english God says have you considered my servant job..
    But the tense is wrong..
    God first asks where the enemy has arrived from . The defeated one says from wandering to and fro on the earth....
    Then God ,who already knows what the devil is up to, is pointing out what he already knows..
    He says...."youve been considering my.servant job...".... I.e your here because your out to cause Jobs downfall but no.mattee what you try you are NOT going to win.( in essence God is letting the devil know that God knows what the devils up to) the devil had been trying unssucessfully to destroy job already... Long before this conversation.

    We know this because the devil goes on to complain about the hedge of protection God has around Job....
    How does the devil know about the hedge..? Because hes been trying to breach it for years and cannot.
    God is then premempting every move he devils trying to make and then sets out to
    #1 display that His (Gods) work in a persons heart unto righteousness is not superficial and reliant on protection
    And #2 ..he sets out to increase Jobs righteousness.. A Very GOOD thing for Job!
    God always works for our good turning even the devils intentions and efforts to the edification of those who are Gods own .
  15. MotherFirefly

    MotherFirefly Well-Known Member

    United States
    Thank you. I attend church occasionally, but have mostly been put off by the atmosphere.
    There are of course, in all things related to humanity, a plethora of unanswered questions. I chose to make a thread off Job because, at first glance, this very popular story appears a few possible contradictions to common things I hear men say when standing in front of a crowd of church-goers.

    God is love.
    Well, why kill a bunch of children and servants to prove a point?

    God wants everyone to be saved.
    Well, why kill a bunch of children and servants who may not have been saved?

    Satan is God's enemy.
    Well, why talk to and make bets with him, and torture one of his most faithful followers just to prove him wrong?

    Among a few others.
    I was curious what other people like me thought about this... however, most people I ask sound like the man behind the pulpit... almost as if they had never, or perhaps were discouraged from asking these questions.

    First, thank you so much for the time you put into this. It means the world to me. There is a lot I didn't know in what you said, and more that I need to look into further...
    You mention a literal and nonliteral translations. This is the first I have heard of this and I am very curious what you mean. Why would there be both?

    Would one not be more correct over the other?

    Thank you.
    I wish I could read the Bible in a language closer to its original. The telephone game has always made me skeptical if what I was reading was actually what it meant... or if King James edited that part a little too far.

    I think I understand the point God was trying to make.
    What gets me is the sacrifices to make it.
  16. GTW27

    GTW27 Junior Member

    United States
    The Lord loves the questioning child. I was that questioning child, with a million questions. Those with a lot of questions tend to dig deeper than those who have not. The Lord is faithful, and with me personally, He has always answered or showed me the answers to the questions I had. Go to Him and ask and He will answer or show you what you want to know. Ask Him for understanding and He will open the scriptures up to you, as He did for me. Put not your trust in man, for he will fail you. It is all about the relationship and trust in Him. As we become One we start to see everything as He sees but first everything else must be stripped away. To fight against Him is normal, as I did the same, but in the end His Love and Faithfulness wins. If Job himself back at the time of the first chapter, was able to read the book of job in it.s entirety, where would he find fault?(For the Lord said job was a faultfinder). I would be willing to bet after Job's conversation with The Lord, that Job's faultfinding was also stripped away.(Where were you when) Be Blessed Little one!
  17. Moshia

    Moshia New Member

    United States

    Hey MotherFirefly,

    You're welcome! I'm glad you read it. I hope it's a good reference for you.

    As for the literal translation and nonliteral translation of the Bible question you had, I would say read both to help with understanding.
    I honestly read verses and chapters in different translations all the time and this really helps me.
    I recommend Biblehub.com. You can even google the verse you want to search and then type "bible hub" at the end of your search and you should get the verse(s) in many translations easily.

    Why is there both? The non-literal is to try to help the Bible sound "natural" to our ears, while the literal is to show us a much more "accurate" wording of the original scriptures.

    As for versions of the Bible, I don't wanna say not to read any version of the Bible, but there are two versions I want to recommend not reading and why:

    1. NIV. I don't recommend NIV because it is actually missing verses. (They omitted verses because the translators where trying to make it sound more natural or something). In my opinion, I don't want to read a Bible that has had verses removed.
    2. Message Bible. I wouldn't recommend it because its wording is very.... weird in some places

    The telephone game point made me skeptical too a long time ago. But the original documents were actually very well preserved by the Jews and the new-testament believers, and there is a warning from God not to add and take away from the scriptures at the end of Revelation. Plus, I know that the Holy Spirit that God gave us will help us understand the Bible and testify that what we read is really His word.

    I don't think I understood what you mean when you mentioned that you understand the point God was trying to make and the sacrifices to make that point?
    What did you mean? I'de love to help as much as I can!