Job - actual account or allegory/parable

[Richard Mulcahy]

Hello all,

Does any of you support the notion that Job may be a parable/allegory and not an actual account?

The author of an article I read thinks it is unlikely. On the other hand another author has reason to think Job may be fictional.

The first author referenced Ezekiel 14: 12-20. Where Jerusalem was in such a bad way that even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness. That they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.

The author goes on to mention that Noah and Daniel are unmistakenly historical. The bible does not treat them as fictional ever, and Job is listed with them with no distinction made at all. He says we therefore need to assume that Job is historical as well.

James 5: 10-11 here the author mentions that James refers to Job as one of the prophets. He put Job in the category with others in history who remained steadfast.

The second author just mentioned the possibility of a fictional Job but gave no reasons.

What is the answer? If Job is an actual account how do we know this? If you're open to the idea of an allegory/parable, please say why.

God bless...

 

[Tra Phull]

Not all Bible scholars would see Daniel as unmistakably historical, in fact most modern Bible scholars would not. Da'nel was a figure in Ugaritic mythology/history - some say Daniel is based on this figure, that book of Daniel was written in the time of Antiochus Epiphanies, centuries after the Babylonian exile. I don't know the answers - it does seem strange that Ezekiel would mention Daniel, his contemporary in the Exile, and probably no more than an adolescent at the time, with Noah and Job - ancient figures. So the plausibility that Ezekiel mentions this Dan'el exists, but he is unknown to Jewish history, unlike Noah and Job.

 

[JackRT]

I regard Job as a truth story rather than a true story. I will briefly try to list a few reasons. Firstly, Satan is portrayed as an angel serving in God's heavenly court in the role of God's prosecuting attorney. This was an unwelcome role but not an evil role. God is portrayed in a strange manner. He seems unable to know what is happening on earth and needs angels to investigate for him. God permits Satan to test Job in the most extreme manner. Job loses his livestock, his servants, his children and his wife. The story portrays God as behaving much like a petty mid-eastern despot callously and arbitrarily treating his subjects as pawns in a game He is playing with his loyal servant, the angel Satan. Why? To settle a bet! Is God is limited that he didn't know Job's loyalty. Here we come to the point of the parable. The Hebrews believed that God rewarded the righteous in this life. They had no concept of a heaven or hell till many centuries in the future. Job had everything, wife, family, servants, huge herds, etc. --- he was regarded as very righteous thus reaping God's favour. But in spite of this he loses everything. The point of this is that our interpretation is wrong. The rich and powerful are not necessarily righteous and neither are the poor and suffering necessarily unrighteous. The Book of Job is a parable.

 

[Tra Phull]

Jesus refers to DANIEL THE PROPHET, who spoke of the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION.

Jesus referred to that as FUTURE TO HIM.

Christians DID HEED Jesus'warning, and fled to Pella in 70 AD.

But I think there was an earlier ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION, Antiochus slaughtering a pig on the altar.

Thus there can be dual/multiple fulfillments of prophecy. How this all relates to the OP question - was Job real? - I am not truly sure. But the 3 figures, Daniel, Job, and Noah - differ widely in certain aspects.

 

[Tra Phull]

JackRT' s thoughts on Job make sense to me - it has always had, to me, the ONCE UPON A TIME features of a parable, taking place in THE LAND OF UZ ( although notes in Orthodox Study Bible point out an actual city other than Us )

Ezekiel' s using Job, Noah and Daniel as a threesome is weird - Job would not be known to non-Jewish people, unlike Noah (in the figure of Utnapishtim in Gilgamesh epic) would be known, but the Daniel who went to Babylon as a youth would not have the kind of "fame" in Ezekiel' s time compared to Noah and Job, therefore I find it possible that Dan'el of earlier tradition MIGHT be who Ezekiel had in mind in his trio of heroes who would only save themselves...
This is a great thread - all begun by wondering if Job was historical

 

[Tra Phull]

Uz, not Us - I have no edit feature.

So "was Job real?" Joins the questions of "was the Flood local or universal?" and "was OUR DANIEL THE one Ezekiel extols with Job and Noah?

 

[Tra Phull]

I listen to - but do not easily swallow - the Modern scholars, our modern day scribes, Pharisees and Sadducees

 

[Scott Husted]

Hello all,

Does any of you support the notion that Job may be a parable/allegory and not an actual account?

The author of an article I read thinks it is unlikely. On the other hand another author has reason to think Job may be fictional.

The first author referenced Ezekiel 14: 12-20. Where Jerusalem was in such a bad way that even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness. That they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.

The author goes on to mention that Noah and Daniel are unmistakenly historical. The bible does not treat them as fictional ever, and Job is listed with them with no distinction made at all. He says we therefore need to assume that Job is historical as well.

James 5: 10-11 here the author mentions that James refers to Job as one of the prophets. He put Job in the category with others in history who remained steadfast.

The second author just mentioned the possibility of a fictional Job but gave no reasons.

What is the answer? If Job is an actual account how do we know this? If you're open to the idea of an allegory/parable, please say why.

God bless...

I do support it.

 

[Bill Anderson]

I understand that Job is a "wisdom" piece, and therefore is most likely fictional. My personal view is that there is also likely a measure of euhemerism in the book, as is the case for many of the other fictional works of the old testament in the "wisdom" or "sapiential" category.

However, whether or not the work is fictional is beside the point. What is more important is the message it conveys - how bad things can happen to "good" people - or at least people who think they are good. Even though the piece was written (by divinely inspired authors) for Jewish readers, its message resonates fully with Christian teaching that no matter how good we think we are, we fall short of the perfection demanded by God to be in his presence, and that perfection is only gained by accepting Christ's redemption once and for all sin.

 

[Tra Phull]

I tend to think there was a REAL DANIEL - whether or not he was referred to by Ezekiel as one of the BIG 3 or not.
I think this real Daniel spent one night in lion's den, not a whole week as is pictured in Greek-only additions to Daniel, where Habakkuk brings stew to Daniel in the den. ( Habakkuk was about a century earlier than the lion's den )
I think there was a real Noah, not too sure about a real Job.

 

[Scott Husted]

I understand that Job is a "wisdom" piece, and therefore is most likely fictional. My personal view is that there is also likely a measure of euhemerism in the book, as is the case for many of the other fictional works of the old testament in the "wisdom" or "sapiential" category.

However, whether or not the work is fictional is beside the point. What is more important is the message it conveys - how bad things can happen to "good" people - or at least people who think they are good. Even though the piece was written (by divinely inspired authors) for Jewish readers, its message resonates fully with Christian teaching that no matter how good we think we are, we fall short of the perfection demanded by God to be in his presence, and that perfection is only gained by accepting Christ's redemption once and for all sin.

To me the main relational point is that there is a vast difference between the hearing of the ear and seeing it for yourself, which Jesus' words he will lead you into all truth, he will be in you echo this.

 

[Tra Phull]

There continues to be GOOD STUFF in this thread, whether by posters who have been here a long time, or very new posters.
My faith will not fall to the ground if Job was real or not, or if Daniel was, or if Noah' s flood was universal or not.

 

[Paidiske]

I view Job as a piece of wisdom literature, an extended reflection on theodicy.

 

[eleos1954]

Hello all,

Does any of you support the notion that Job may be a parable/allegory and not an actual account?

The author of an article I read thinks it is unlikely. On the other hand another author has reason to think Job may be fictional.

The first author referenced Ezekiel 14: 12-20. Where Jerusalem was in such a bad way that even if Noah, Daniel and Job were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness. That they alone would be saved, but the land would be desolate.

The author goes on to mention that Noah and Daniel are unmistakenly historical. The bible does not treat them as fictional ever, and Job is listed with them with no distinction made at all. He says we therefore need to assume that Job is historical as well.

James 5: 10-11 here the author mentions that James refers to Job as one of the prophets. He put Job in the category with others in history who remained steadfast.

The second author just mentioned the possibility of a fictional Job but gave no reasons.

What is the answer? If Job is an actual account how do we know this? If you're open to the idea of an allegory/parable, please say why.

God bless...

The author of Job states Job lived, had family (four generations) and died. No reason to believe the book of Job is a parable.

Job 42:16
And after this Job lived 140 years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, four generations.

Job 42:17
And Job died, an old man, and full of days.

as you pointed out ... as stated in James. In 5:10-11 we read: “My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.” Obviously, James was not writing through inspiration about an imaginary person. Rather, he considered Job as real as Elijah, Isaiah, and Jeremiah, and as genuine as the Lord Himself.

 

[Vanellus]

Often churches and Christians focus on the prose accounts at the beginning and the end of Job. But that is just the set up for the important wisdom teaching in the middle - and note it's important to note who is speaking.

It doesn't seem reaonable to think that this long discourse was taken down verbatim. More likely it was composed carefully over a period of time. That doesn't mean that Job didn't exist though

 

[Tra Phull]

So all these people who want me to have THE PATIENCE OF JOB - May be wanting me to have SUMPN WHAT AIN'T !

 

[Tra Phull]

Or, then again, maybe not...

Job, Noah and Daniel
could save only themselves.

 

[Scott Husted]

In some respects it really is a moot point, real or no, and there’s really no one alive at the moment who qualifies to say one way or the other. If they did, they would merely be repeating what some else told them to begin with.

If it is real, one point to muse over would be that God not only allowed it, but made a challenge out of all of it, up to the point of his very life. And what about the wife, she doesn’t get much air time in all this other than being an unmentioned baby factory who Satan reserved for a one line nag, which in the allegorical sense might even be taken as a harshly put anecdote.

 

[JackRT]

If it is real, one point to muse over would be that God not only allowed it, but made a challenge out of all of it, up to the point of his very life. And what about the wife, she doesn’t get much air time in all this other than being an unmentioned baby factory who Satan reserved for a one line nag, which in the allegorical might even be taken as a harshly put anecdote.

What about the wife? In patriarchal societies wives don't matter much.

 

[Scott Husted]

What about the wife? In patriarchal societies wives don't matter much.

I believe her response to losing all her kids and to her husband's woes was curse God and die.