ones views on the Jews are not a salvation issue

[Cockcrow]

I will not break fellowship with someone who disagrees on the Jews, Israel, I happen to believe they have been replaced based on Galatians 3, 4. But no two Christians are going to agree on everything. But so many bully you from the pulpit or put fear in you, and will say no it actually is a salvation/fellowship issue, and say that you must Worship/Love the Jews or you’re cursed, not saved and they will break fellowship with you, which comes across pulpits every Sunday in America, that is very spiritual dangerous. You cannot force people to worship the Christ rejecting Jews and call them “Gods chosen people”. And then satanically threaten them into worshipping a Christ rejecting Israel. You're not allowed to even question or have an opposing view, When the Bible clearly teaches that the Christ rejecting Jews are not Gods people.

Galatians 3:6-9

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Here Paul quotes the promise in Genesis 12:3 and he says, it is those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, we are blessed with the promises of Abraham by faith.

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

There are so many clear scriptures talking about how there is neither Jew nor Greek, he is not a jew outwardly, etc. to say that you must worship the Jews or you’re not saved/not right with God or other attacks and threats, is anti-Bible and like I said it is spiritually dangerous.

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Paul who was himself a Jew, says he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; WE are the circumcision which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

John the Baptist said to the Jews in Matthew 3:9 “And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.” he said don't even think about saying you have Abraham as your Father. and Jesus said to Jews, their father is the devil in John 8:44. They don't inherit the promise of Abraham, they inherit the devil.

Philippians 3:3 “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”

Let me ask you this, do the current Jews in so called Israel rejoice in Christ Jesus? Because if not then they are not the Jews. God doesn’t regard them as Jews. Paul who was himself a Jew, says WE are the circumcision which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Yet they will bully you and say about the Jews how you must worship them because “bless them that bless thee, curse them that curse thee” threat when that’s not even what those verses are talking about see Galatians 3 and 4. I really don’t understand where they are getting this doctrine from, it is not in scripture, not in the New Testament. It is a doctrine of men, tradition of men. And it is spiritual bullying when you tell people they must worship the Jews, love Jews, love Christ rejecting Israel blindly no matter what, setting aside all reality. That is a cult, when you are not allowed to disagree. when the Jews reject and hate the Lord Jesus Christ, persecute Christians, spit on Christians, it is wicked.

1 John 2:22 “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” Judaism is the religion of antichrist, I mean they are saying that there is a messiah and he’s not Jesus, so yes they are antichrist. that is the definition of antichrist, to say that there is a Christ out there and that it’s not Jesus. That's antichrist.

They are looking for the antichrist to come and believe on him. And then all the fake Christians will see the Jews believing on the false messiah so then they will apply “All Israel shall be saved” like the people who say that all the Jews will somehow magically get saved, to that and say oh look all the Jews are miraculously believing in Christ now. But it’s a false Christ. And then they say you hate Jews or are anti semitic when I am just preaching what the Bible says. 99% of Christian churches are pro Israel so obviously this isn’t a salvation issue because if it was then there would be nowhere to fellowship, or attend church in the USA because they are all Israel worshipping. But the Bible commands us to not forsake the assembly, you are commanded to go to church. But people don't read their bible cover to cover they just repeat "bless them that bless thee, curse them that curse thee" just keep repeating that over and over when it's not biblical.

Ephesians 2:11-13 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God

The Bible clearly over and over in the NT says that Believers in Lord Jesus Christ are Gods chosen people, they are the people of God. Not Christ rejecting Jews. the Bible word of God says about non physical Jews, "ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." we are fellowcitizens, of the commonwealth of Israel. if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, the bible says you're Israel. You're Gods chosen and guess what, all of the promises of Abraham, all of the inheritance is yours. Because God's chosen people are those who rejoice in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 10:12 “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

the real racists are the ones who think that just because of their flesh, or the fact that they are physically descended from Abraham they are better than you, "oh God's chosen" that is the real racist. when I am just saying that God is not a respecter of persons. God doesn't look at Christ rejecting Jews as somehow better or "Gods chosen people" while rejecting everyone else. Red Yellow Black or White whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Salvation has nothing to do with physical Jew or not. rather it is based on do you Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. the question is do you Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is the question, do you believe Jesus is the messiah who died buried rose again for your sins according to 1 Corinthians 15:3-4, because those who believe in Lord Jesus Christ are God's chosen people. those who reject Lord Jesus Christ are not God's people.

Jesus said in Matthew 8:11-12 11 “And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

I am not saying that you're wicked if you believe differently on the Jews, or "you're not saved/not right with God" I'm not mad at you I don't hate you, a lot of people are deceived or simply afraid to say anything on this issue. but it is embarrassing based on the fact that there are so many clear verses, have you even read the bible? you need to let people have different opinions without violating their conscience to support or worship a group of people who hate and mock our Lord Jesus Christ. and it is very hurtful harmful when someone bullies you into supporting something that you clearly don't want to support. like Israel for example. putting fear into people that they must worship Israel Jews or else, that is not of God. I will not be peer pressured or bullied on this issue I know what the Bible says and am confident in my rejoicing in Christ Jesus, that this is the truth.

 

[Guojing]

I will not break fellowship with someone who disagrees on the Jews, Israel, I happen to believe they have been replaced based on Galatians 3, 4.

You are one of those rare Christians I have encountered who is confident enough to state they subscribe to replacement theology.

 

[Cockcrow]

You are one of those rare Christians I have encountered who is confident enough to state they subscribe to replacement theology.

I have read these verses before and I know when I hear someone talking about worshipping the Christ rejecting Jews that is wrong that is not Biblical. Romans 2:28-29 Philippines 3:3 , Galatians 3, 4. The bible is clear on this issue Jesus called them the synagogue of Satan in Revelation 2:9, 3:9 I am not just going to ignore the bible and blindly follow someone who worships Christ rejecting Israel. I can't hold back preaching what is right and what is biblical out of fear, that would be a sin

 

[Guojing]

I have read these verses before and I know when I hear someone talking about worshipping the Christ rejecting Jews that is wrong that is not Biblical. Romans 2:28-29 Philippines 3:3 , Galatians 3, 4. The bible is clear on this issue Jesus called them the synagogue of Satan in Revelation 2:9, 3:9 I am not just going to ignore the bible and blindly follow someone who worships Christ rejecting Israel. I can't hold back preaching what is right and what is biblical out of fear, that would be a sin

Out of curiosity, if you believed you are now considered Israel in God's eyes, do you have any idea which of the 12 tribes you belong to?

 

[Jipsah]

Out of curiosity, if you believed you are now considered Israel in God's eyes, do you have any idea which of the 12 tribes you belong to?

I don't know of any Jews who claim to know what tribe they descended from. Is that important?

 

[Guojing]

I don't know of any Jews who claim to know what tribe they descended from. Is that important?

Well, given what will transpire in Revelation 7:1-8 during the Tribulation, I would think its important.

So far, none of the Christians I have encountered who say they are part of Israel actually care or are aware of this.

 

[Oneofhope]

Intriguing conversation. You guys should continue.

 

[Der Alte]

I have read these verses before and I know when I hear someone talking about worshipping the Christ rejecting Jews that is wrong that is not Biblical. Romans 2:28-29 Philippines 3:3 , Galatians 3, 4. The bible is clear on this issue Jesus called them the synagogue of Satan in Revelation 2:9, 3:9 I am not just going to ignore the bible and blindly follow someone who worships Christ rejecting Israel. I can't hold back preaching what is right and what is biblical out of fear, that would be a sin

I would be careful about condemning all Jews based on a few verses which address a specific few.

Romans 11:1-2
(1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Romans 11:4-5
(4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
(5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Romans 11:11
(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:23
(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Romans 11:24
(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?​

 

[Cockcrow]

I would be careful about condemning all Jews based on a few verses which address a specific few.

Romans 11:1-2​

(1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.​

(2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,​

Romans 11:4-5​

(4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.​

(5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​

Romans 11:11​

(11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.​

Romans 11:23​

(23) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.​

Romans 11:24​

(24) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?​

He hasn't cast them away meaning if they believe on Jesus Christ they will be saved, There is a remanent who believe on Christ. but then they would no longer be Jews. If a Jew Believes on the Lord Jesus Christ ten they are saved. that's what it is talking about. it isn't saying that Christ rejecting Jews automatically are Gods chosen people even if they reject Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Oneofhope]

The Apostle Paul taught the concept of a hidden, Mysterious Plan of God, a Plan kept secret since the beginning. Since this seems to be on track with the core concept of the entire Bible, we should stay on it. This Plan includes branches being cut off so that Gentile branches could be grafted in. Paul also taught that at just the right time, when the right number of Gentiles were added (to the Body of Christ), God would awaken the Body of the Blessed Jews and cause them to wake up, to come out of their "deep sleep."

Romans 11:25-29 NLT - 25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say, "The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem, and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness. 27 And this is my covenant with them, that I will take away their sins." 28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29 For God's gifts and his call can never be withdrawn.

 

[Der Alte]

He hasn't cast them away meaning if they believe on Jesus Christ they will be saved, There is a remanent who believe on Christ. but then they would no longer be Jews. If a Jew Believes on the Lord Jesus Christ ten they are saved. that's what it is talking about. it isn't saying that Christ rejecting Jews automatically are Gods chosen people even if they reject Lord Jesus Christ

Messianic Jews consider themselves still Jew and Christian. Some years ago I was transferred from the SF bay area to 19 miles south of Disneyland. While having cable installed in my apt. the TV guy had a very distinctive speaking voice. My wife commented on it and said to him "You should use your voice for the glory of God." He said "I do. I'm the cantor in my synagogue." So a 20 min cable install turned into a 45 min fellowship. He was Jew from NY came to Calif. for UCLA, became a Christian via Campus Crusade but maintained his Jewish faith. They observed all the feasts/festivals etc. of the O.T. but not as a requirement of the law but a remembrance of their Jewish history. His night job was the radio voice of the San Diego Chargers.

 

[Cockcrow]

Messianic Jews consider themselves still Jew and Christian. Some years ago I was transferred from the SF bay area to 19 miles south of Disneyland. While having cable installed in my apt. the TV guy had a very distinctive speaking voice. My wife commented on it and said to him "You should use your voice for the glory of God." He said "I do. I'm the cantor in my synagogue." So a 20 min cable install turned into a 45 min fellowship. He was Jew from NY came to Calif. for UCLA, became a Christian via Campus Crusade but maintained his Jewish faith. They observed all the feasts/festivals etc. of the O.T. but not as a requirement of the law but a remembrance of their Jewish history. His night job was the radio voice of the San Diego Chargers.

he might want to read the book of Galatians.

 

[Oneofhope]

he might want to read the book of Galatians.

Can you help us out by giving us a clue as to what you would like us to pay particular attention to as we read the letter to the Galatians?

 

[Der Alte]

he might want to read the book of Galatians.

That was about 20 years ago, I'm quite sure he has.

 

[Der Alte]

Can you help us out by giving us a clue as to what you would like us to pay particular attention to as we read the letter to the Galatians?

Right! The book of Galatians is pretty vague. Without searching I think I know what he is talking about. Something about the synagogue of Satan

 

[Oneofhope]

Right! The book of Galatians is pretty vague. Without searching I think I know what he is talking about. Something about the synagogue of Satan

Hard to say. Galatians is packed with information dealing with the Circumcision of the Heart, the Law of Moses, and the Post Law of Moses. Besides these three main topics, there are tons of littler ones.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, given what will transpire in Revelation 7:1-8 during the Tribulation, I would think its important.

So far, none of the Christians I have encountered who say they are part of Israel actually care or are aware of this.

Seeing as that has nothing to do with a future tribulation, and the 144,000 is symbolic and isn't about being Jewish. Twelve Tribes, Twelve Apostles, multiplied by 1,000 to indicate a vast number seems to suggest that the point is "all God's people", not just a tiny minority of God's people from a specific still-future period. Compare with the great multitude.

The Apocalypse speaks of two kinds of identification: Those who are marked by the beast, and those who are sealed by God.

This seal and mark from God is the same which Paul mentions in Ephesians 1:13. It is our belonging to God in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In opposition to those who align themselves with the beast.

One cannot confess both Christ and Caesar (or any other so-called lord) as lord.

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'--yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6

We can't call Christ Lord if we go and offer incense to Caesar or offer sacrifices to idols. That is a contradiction of allegiance, a conflict of loyalty. We confess one God, one Lord, and also one Spirit, one Body, one Baptism, one Faith.

We, who are in Christ, have been sealed by God, marked by God--whether Jew or Gentile, whether slave or free, whether male or female, whether Scythian, Barbarian, circumcised or uncircumcised--and have received the Holy Spirit as a promise and a guarantee of the things of God and the inheritance promised us. So that all the children of Abraham--children of the Promise--by faith in the Messiah shall be heirs; heirs not of temporal glory, but heirs of eternal glory. For what was looked forward to from Abraham was not merely a plot of land in the Levant, but the Christ who was to come; and so all who are Christ's have Abraham as their father, and are promised a land overflowing with milk and honey. Not a geopolitical state, not a plot of land, not a temporal government--but the redemption and restoration of all things. On that Day God raises the dead and makes all things new, when Christ comes in glory and power and the mighty blast of the heavenly shofar.

So, no, tribal identification doesn't matter. For in the Messiah God has, and continues, to bring all peoples of all tribes; whether they be Jew or Gentile, to Himself. "For this promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Guojing]

Seeing as that has nothing to do with a future tribulation, and the 144,000 is symbolic and isn't about being Jewish. Twelve Tribes, Twelve Apostles, multiplied by 1,000 to indicate a vast number seems to suggest that the point is "all God's people", not just a tiny minority of God's people from a specific still-future period. Compare with the great multitude.

The Apocalypse speaks of two kinds of identification: Those who are marked by the beast, and those who are sealed by God.

This seal and mark from God is the same which Paul mentions in Ephesians 1:13. It is our belonging to God in Christ by the Holy Spirit.

In opposition to those who align themselves with the beast.

One cannot confess both Christ and Caesar (or any other so-called lord) as lord.

"For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'--yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." - 1 Corinthians 8:5-6

We can't call Christ Lord if we go and offer incense to Caesar or offer sacrifices to idols. That is a contradiction of allegiance, a conflict of loyalty. We confess one God, one Lord, and also one Spirit, one Body, one Baptism, one Faith.

We, who are in Christ, have been sealed by God, marked by God--whether Jew or Gentile, whether slave or free, whether male or female, whether Scythian, Barbarian, circumcised or uncircumcised--and have received the Holy Spirit as a promise and a guarantee of the things of God and the inheritance promised us. So that all the children of Abraham--children of the Promise--by faith in the Messiah shall be heirs; heirs not of temporal glory, but heirs of eternal glory. For what was looked forward to from Abraham was not merely a plot of land in the Levant, but the Christ who was to come; and so all who are Christ's have Abraham as their father, and are promised a land overflowing with milk and honey. Not a geopolitical state, not a plot of land, not a temporal government--but the redemption and restoration of all things. On that Day God raises the dead and makes all things new, when Christ comes in glory and power and the mighty blast of the heavenly shofar.

So, no, tribal identification doesn't matter. For in the Messiah God has, and continues, to bring all peoples of all tribes; whether they be Jew or Gentile, to Himself. "For this promise is for you and for your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself".

-CryptoLutheran

If it's symbolic, why do they mention the 12 tribes in that passage?

 

[OldAbramBrown]

They haven't really been replaced as they have the same opportunities as everybody from any nation, and always did have that opportunity, and still do. They had the metaphorical task of pre-announcing salvation and many of them believed completely, just from that. The only ones blameworthy and in any case not excluded from forgiveness (such as Paul) were those local at the time who were in senior leadership who connived in Jesus' actual execution. Paul tends to warn his readership, i.e all of us nowadays, not to presume greater spiritual privilege for ourselves than those Jewish leaders had then.

Now you call it replaced but it isn't: we've been added, in every generation, as they can be grafted in too and a great many have done and do. Before His death Jesus was telling them this and He was an insider. When He was 12 He was asking temple authorities whether they could believe this and they were impressed. Thus it was not the Jews' race that gained them the privilege, in old days either. It was simply a charism that they passed down; they were doing God's will in that, and look what a boost to us that has been, and look at the many faithful OT characters and contemporaries of Jesus. The split came after 70 and more so, 130 AD, engineered by the Empire.

Then there are those who oppose you but what they would really mean if they were honest is something like what I've said but they are too superstitious to think it out like this. We don't know what happened to my uncle when still a boy because he was of race so this is close to my heart. Your underlying import seems to be that you refuse to split with others over it which is good. Wait till both they and you can explain it to each other better which is when you'll both see it the way it is.

In spite of any material need to migrate somewhere, I think it gained a superstitious overlay from dispensationists, whose doctrinal foibles one definitely shouldn't play to (I hope I'm allowed to say so). Hannah Arendt and Franz Rosenzweig had qualms about the faction dominating the migration movement. Policies of France vis a vis the Ottomans had long needed far earlier and decisive critique (e.g 1850s). One also shouldn't identify the public with a politician who engineered a stronger opposing force against a weaker one, and collusion from institutions. Wasn't there an assassination nearly 30 years ago - that wasn't particularly random.

I think it's very wrong of politicians to selectively fly some foreign flags from buildings but not (for instance) the Armenian or Afghan ones; saying so is not nasty to my relatives' race at all, nor does it regard them as spiritually disadvantaged on an ad hominem basis. As for the row about "proselytising" I think "evangelical" / "evangelistic" procedures need fine tuning everywhere anyway: perhaps we need bigger belief in Holy Spirit and in individual gifts?

 

[OldAbramBrown]

I will not break ...

And there is more to it (continued from my last post above). The term "replace" gets used. Well, those who replaced those of Old Testament times and since who believed as far as they could, replaced them. Not essentially because they were Jewish - which they may have been, merely incidentally - but purely because they had had that faith handed on to them.

Now you believed, not because you are a Gentile, but because someone happened to pass belief to you. After you aren't there any more, you will be replaced by someone whom the faith has been passed to.

St Paul used typical rhetoric and the Old and New Testaments were accompanied by much oral teaching (unlike now) and everybody knew how to read sound logic into the thread of wordings. Logic is supposed to be about honesty and not sophistry.

Also history tells us that those races that for a period, appear to have a near proximity to racial institutions and those who don't are not different kinds of races and that this apparent phenomenon is incidental. Moreover, there were Jews at all periods who didn't believe.

In the Bible race meant descent, i.e family in one line not all your lines.

Replacement theology on race lines doesn't come from St Paul, it came from those he was arguing against (see my previous post).

Already in the NT are families of several generations that include christians (generally their race isn't mentioned but obviously it included many of Jewish ancestry).

Myriad families of recent centuries who include christians, had part Jewish ancestry, proving that bodily as well as spiritual descendants of Abraham (and remember this goes back no further than him, which isn't very far back) have been joining the Kingdom all along.

Furthermore there have been different kinds of people of Gentile descent. Firstly there were the ones who became friends of the Jewish religion without becoming Jews; then there were also those who became Jews themselves. I can't remember the technical names of these groups.

Thus it's nonsense to claim that Galatians declares race replacement theology. It's equally nonsense that your opponents fall back on their false dichotomy, not honest logic either.

Where you're right and I think this is the point you were actually making, is that you refuse to split.