Jewish Jesus implies what?

[cloudyday2]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches. Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

 

[Basil the Great]

Few Christians favor importing Jewish traditions. I sometimes think that the Christian Church could learn a lot from our Jewish friends, especially when it comes to teachings about the afterlife, as Judaism believes that all people who abide by the Noahide laws will have a place in Heaven.

As to your question, it is one that few people dare to ask it seems. For myself, Jesus' Jewish heritage strongly implies that he most likely never taught that everyone had to accept him as the Messiah or else they would go into Hell. Having said that, most Christians on CF strongly disagree with me. I also find it hard to believe that Jesus created the Lord's Supper as a means to provide his followers with his literal body and blood. Jewish law back then strictly forbid the consumption of blood.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches. Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

Originally Christians were considered a sect of Judaism under Roman law until they became their own religion.

However, since Jesus was ostracized and killed by the Jewish people as if he was not of them, it is questionable if he really was a Jew beyond his ethnicity. What Jesus taught was totally against the religious teachings of the day providing a better understanding of what the core teachings were thus creating a new way of worshipping God in his death.

To go back to the practices of those who crucified him because He spoke lies according to their traditions - would be to say he died in vain.

 

[HARK!]

Yahshua rebuked those putting the traditions of men over Torah. Yahshua called us to obedience to the Torah.


Chag Pesach Sameach!

 

[Basil the Great]

Yahshua rebuked those putting the traditions of men over Torah. Yahshua called us to obedience to the Torah.

I have read remarks by some historians that Jesus did support obedience to the Torah. This seems to have been the position of Peter, James and some others, but Paul's position is the one that carried the day in the end. Hence, Christians do not feel bound by the Torah.

 

[eleos1954]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches. Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

While there are many similarities between Messianic Judaism, Christianity, and Judaism, Messianic Jewish people embrace their Jewish heritage, while believing that Yeshua is the Messiah, the promised Redeemer of Israel and all of mankind.

Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism?

There are elements of Christianity that embrace elements of Judaism and vice versa. (Not surprising since the God worked through the Jewish nation).

Galatians 3:28

Berean Study Bible
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

those in Christ are one, whether they embrace Jewish heritage/customs or not!

 

[HARK!]

I have read remarks by some historians that Jesus did support obedience to the Torah. This seems to have been the position of Peter, James and some others, but Paul's position is the one that carried the day in the end. Hence, Christians do not feel bound by the Torah.

Paul's message was the bare minimum for a gentile to be able to share table fellowship with Israel; while they continued to learn Torah every Sabbath. He was talking to babes in need of milk.

 

[mkgal1]

I have read remarks by some historians that Jesus did support obedience to the Torah. This seems to have been the position of Peter, James and some others, but Paul's position is the one that carried the day in the end. Hence, Christians do not feel bound by the Torah.

Yes, but He simplified and clarified what He meant when He gave this answer about the Law and what the prophets spoke of (and I believe all His disciples held that position):

37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’e 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’f 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” - Matthew 22:37-40​

 

[cloudyday2]

For myself, Jesus' Jewish heritage strongly implies that he most likely never taught that everyone had to accept him as the Messiah or else they would go into Hell.

I suppose anybody opposing the governance of the Messiah would be guilty of treason - especially if they were Jewish. I'm not certain if Judaism expects a future Messiah to rule over Gentiles in addition to Jews or not. It's an interesting question.

I also find it hard to believe that Jesus created the Lord's Supper as a means to provide his followers with his literal body and blood. Jewish law back then strictly forbid the consumption of blood.

I'm sure you know the Didache describes the wine as a symbol of the lineage of David and the bread as a symbol of gathering scattered people (Jews I suppose, but maybe Gentiles too). On the other hand, where would the connection between the wine and blood originate if it wasn't a shocking innovation from Jesus? I guess Mithraism had a baptism in a bull's blood. The Bible says "the life is in the blood" (can't remember where or the exact words). Another interesting issue.

 

[cloudyday2]

@Basil the Great , what did the Ebionites believe and practice? I haven't found very much detail about the Ebionites, but maybe I have not looked enough. There were some other sects of Jewish Christians mentioned as heretics who might also help.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Originally Christians were considered a sect of Judaism under Roman law until they became their own religion.

However, since Jesus was ostracized and killed by the Jewish people as if he was not of them, it is questionable if he really was a Jew beyond his ethnicity. What Jesus taught was totally against the religious teachings of the day providing a better understanding of what the core teachings were thus creating a new way of worshipping God in his death.

To go back to the practices of those who crucified him because He spoke lies according to their traditions - would be to say he died in vain.

I see you are a Christian seeker, you should keep seeking.

Both the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed mention Pontius Pilate, not the Jews, as the crucifier of Jesus. These creeds must be believed in order to have the “Christian” label.

 

[cloudyday2]

Yahshua rebuked those putting the traditions of men over Torah. Yahshua called us to obedience to the Torah.

Do you think Jesus wanted Gentiles to obey the Torah and possibly convert to Judaism?

 

[ViaCrucis]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches. Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

I find that many times those who want to "import" Jewish practices generally aren't very knowledgeable about Judaism; and they are also often very ignorant of the historic practices in Christianity and how those practices are deeply rooted in a first century Jewish context. The historic Christian liturgy, for example, is built upon the foundation of the Jewish liturgy. What is called the Liturgy of the Word, the first part of the Christian liturgy, is rooted in the liturgical practice of the synagogue--prayers, hymns, Scripture readings, and instruction (a homily/sermon)--have their basis in the Synagogue.

There is a lot, I believe, to find valuable in looking at both historic and contemporary Jewish ideas that can be very beneficial as a Christian. For example, the Jewish idea of Tikkun Olam, the Reparing of the World, is an idea that I find deeply compelling; and it's something that I am often curious might share parallels with some of Jesus' teaching of the kingdom, and in the ecclesiastical mission in bearing the anticipation of the future world into this present one. It's less, in my opinion, about importing and more about reflecting on the historical and religious context of the Gospels.

That, I think, is valuable and important. But what I often see is more akin to cultural appropriation. It's often akin to simply taking a kippah and wearing it and saying, "We're more Jewish now". Well, no, you're just wearing a hat. For one, I think Jews and Jewish spirituality deserves more respect than that; it's a superficial paint job to give the vague appearance of "Jewishness", but really doesn't seem to care much about the actual substance of Judaism and the rich history of Jewish thought. If I want to respect and appreciate the Jewish perspective, and make an honest examination of my own religion from its ancient Jewish context, then I should take the substance seriously, not just say "Oh, my church is actually a synagogue now, and we call our pastor 'rabbi'". Which is one of my general criticisms for many pseudo-Jewish Christian groups.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HARK!]

Do you think Jesus wanted Gentiles to obey the Torah and possibly convert to Judaism?

He wanted them to follow him; not Judaism. Yahshua kept the Torah, not Judaism.

(CLV) Mt 15:24
Now He, answering, said, "I was not commissioned except for the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I see you are a Christian seeker, you should keep seeking.

Both the Apostles Creed and Nicene Creed mention Pontius Pilate, not the Jews, as the crucifier of Jesus. These creeds must be believed in order to have the “Christian” label.

Christian seeker means, I am a Christian, but just don't have a tradition that I subscribe to.

The Gospel of John indicates that the Jews crucified Jesus, the gospel of John also is a strong witness for the trinity, which is also a condition for having the Christian label.

Also the early writings indicate that the Jews were at odds for being accused of murdering Jesus. So yes, Potius Pilate was forced to kill Jesus as the head of state, However, a full understanding of the Christian teachings, will come to the conclusion that the heart of murder was with the Jews - as it is written, one who hates murders. Just like it is also written, one who burns with passion towards a woman commits adultery.

Pontius - outside of cup.

The jews of his day - inside the cup full of excess and dead men's bones.

 

[HARK!]

I see you are a Christian seeker, you should keep seeking.

We should all keep seeking. Seek and you will find. I still don't have that walking on water thing down.

 

[cloudyday2]

He wanted them to follow him; not Judaism. Yahshua kept the Torah, not Judaism.

Where do you see differences between Torah and Judaism?

(CLV) Ex 12:49
One law shall there be for both the native and for the sojourner sojourning in your midst.

Would that have meant that a non-Jewish sojourner was required to observe the Sabbath for example?

 

[Soyeong]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches. Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different god, but rather he came to bring fullness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and by teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. In Acts 6:13, Stephen was falsely accused of teaching against the Torah, and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul took steps at the direction of James to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah, so if no one in leadership was teaching against obeying God, then all Christians were Torah observant Israelites for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10. So Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah. So yes, follower of Christ should seek by faith to follow the same religion that he followed in accordance what what he taught by word and by example.

 

[HARK!]

Where do you see differences between Torah and Judaism?

Judaism, even in the time of Yahshua, was following the Talmud. Since then, the Talmud has been greatly expanded.

Would that have meant that a non-Jewish sojourner was required to observe the Sabbath for example?

A ger toshav is a gentile who accepts the authority of the Torah and the rabbis upon himself, but specifically as applied to gentiles. The term ger toshav may be used in a formal or informal sense.

In the formal sense, a ger toshav is a gentile who officially accepts the seven Noahide Laws as binding upon himself in the presence of a beth din (Jewish rabbinical court). In the Talmudic discussion regarding the ger toshav, there are two other, differing minority opinions (Avodah Zarah, 64b) as to what the ger toshav accepts upon himself:[6][7]

1. To abstain from idolatrous practices of any kind (detailed in Exodus 20:2–4, Deut 5:6–8).[2]
2. To uphold all the 613 commandments in rabbinical enumeration,[2] except for the prohibition against eating kosher animals that died by means other than ritual slaughter, or possibly[6] (Meiri) any prohibition not involving kareth.

The accepted legal definition is the majority opinion that the ger toshav must accept the seven Noahide Laws before a rabbinical court of three.[2][6] Such a ger toshav receives certain legal protections and privileges from the community, the rules regarding Jewish-Gentile relations are modified, and there is a Biblical obligation to render him aid when in need. The restrictions on having a gentile do work for a Jew on the Sabbath are also stricter when the gentile is a ger toshav.[8]

In the informal sense, a ger toshav is one who accepts the Noahide Laws on his own, or alternatively, simply rejects idolatry[2][6] (the latter issue is in particular brought up regarding Muslims.)[6] More formally, a gentile who accepts the Seven Mitzvot, although not before a beth din, is known as chasid umot ha'olam, which means "Pious People of the World."[9] There is discussion among the halakhic authorities as to which of the rules regarding a ger toshav would apply to the informal case.[2][8]

The procedure has been discontinued since the cessation of the year of Jubilee, and hence, there are no formal gerim toshvim (plural) extant today. However, it can be argued that a great deal are "informal" ones,[6] especially since it is possible to be a chasid umot ha'olam even when the Jubilee Year is not observed.[10]

ger toshav - Yahoo Search Results

(CLV) Ec 1:9
What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun.

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

 

[cloudyday2]

Jesus did not come to start his own religion following a different god, but rather he came to bring fullness to Judaism as its Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy. He practiced Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and by teaching his followers how to obey it by word and by example. In Acts 6:13, Stephen was falsely accused of teaching against the Torah, and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul took steps at the direction of James to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Torah, so if no one in leadership was teaching against obeying God, then all Christians were Torah observant Israelites for roughly the first 7-15 years after Christ's resurrection up until the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10. So Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah. So yes, follower of Christ should seek by faith to follow the same religion that he followed in accordance what what he taught by word and by example.

In the early years, all the Christians were ethnic Jews born to Jewish parents. Traditionally Judaism has not sought converts. The Hasmonean kings forced some of their conquered foes to convert to Judaism, but I'm not aware of any other efforts. So why should a Gentile Christian think that he/she should convert to Judaism?