Jewish Jesus implies what?

[eleos1954]

Where do you see differences between Torah and Judaism?


Would that have meant that a non-Jewish sojourner was required to observe the Sabbath for example?

They taught for all to keep the Sabbath, many a sojourner (foreigner) attended teachings and scripture was formally taught to the masses on the 7th day Sabbath.

so they were taught .... whether a sojourner decided to do that or not ... perhaps some did perhaps some didn't ... just like today.

 

[Soyeong]

In the early years, all the Christians were ethnic Jews born to Jewish parents. Traditionally Judaism has not sought converts. The Hasmonean kings forced some of their conquered foes to convert to Judaism, but I'm not aware of any other efforts. So why should a Gentile Christian think that he/she should convert to Judaism?

In Matthew 23:15, Jesus said that the scribes and Pharisees were traveling across sea and land to make a single proselyte, so at least some were putting in an effort to make coverts to Judaism. Again, Christianity is a form of Judaism. Christ taught how to practice Judaism by word and by example and Christians are those who seek by faith to follow what Christ taught by word and by example. In Acts 23:6, Paul still identified as Pharisee, which is a sect of Judaism, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, Gentiles are instructed to follow his example, so Gentiles are instructed to follow the example of a Pharisee. Likewise, in Matthew 23:3, Jesus instructed his followers to do what the Pharisees told them to do.

 

[Basil the Great]

@Basil the Great , what did the Ebionites believe and practice? I haven't found very much detail about the Ebionites, but maybe I have not looked enough. There were some other sects of Jewish Christians mentioned as heretics who might also help.

Sadly, little is known today about most of these groups, but some believe that there were a few Jewish-Christians still around into the 400's, possibly even 500's.

 

[cloudyday2]

In Matthew 23:15, Jesus said that the scribes and Pharisees were traveling across sea and land to make a single proselyte, so at least some were putting in an effort to make coverts to Judaism. Again, Christianity is a form of Judaism. Christ taught how to practice Judaism by word and by example and Christians are those who seek by faith to follow what Christ taught by word and by example. In Acts 23:6, Paul still identified as Pharisee, which is a sect of Judaism, and in 1 Corinthians 11:1, Gentiles are instructed to follow his example, so Gentiles are instructed to follow the example of a Pharisee. Likewise, in Matthew 23:3, Jesus instructed his followers to do what the Pharisees told them to do.

I suspect that this verse describes Pharisees attempting to convert Jews of other sects to their own sect. As I recall, the majority of Jews were living outside Palestine even before the birth of Jesus. And there were many Jewish sects. The missionary journeys of Paul were essentially missions to convert Jews in the Mediterranean diaspora to the new Jewish sect of Christianity. The gentile converts were "God fearers" who were intrigued by Judaism as a philosophy. Perhaps Paul succeeded simply because he was eager to take gentile converts and didn't ask them to become circumcised while the other Jewish sects discouraged gentile converts.

 

[Soyeong]

I suspect that this verse describes Pharisees attempting to convert Jews of other sects to their own sect. As I recall, the majority of Jews were living outside Palestine even before the birth of Jesus. And there were many Jewish sects. The missionary journeys of Paul were essentially missions to convert Jews in the Mediterranean diaspora to the new Jewish sect of Christianity. The gentile converts were "God fearers" who were intrigued by Judaism as a philosophy. Perhaps Paul succeeded simply because he was eager to take gentile converts and didn't ask them to become circumcised while the other Jewish sects discouraged gentile converts.

I'm not sure the word had the range of meaning in the 1st century of converting from one sect to another, though it is possible. Jews have been given the role by God of being a light to the nations (Isaiah 2:2-3, Isaiah 49:6, Deuteronomy 4:5-8) and the Gospel went to the Jew first and then the nations in order to equip the Jews to fulfill that role. In Exodus 12:38, there was a mixed multitude that went up out of Egypt with them, so there were Gentiles at the foot of Sinai. In Joshua 8:33, Israel was inclusive of both the foreigner and the native for, so there have always been righteous Gentiles who have affiliated themselves with the God of Israel, who have sought by faith to repent of their sins and to learn how to walk in His ways in obedience to His law.

 

[Albion]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches.

Most of the Messianic Christians I have known are ethnic Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah. They simply value their ethnic and religious heritage and see no reason to give it up in order to be a Christian, especially since Christ saw himself as the fulfillment of Hebrew religious thought.

IOW, the idea of Christians who "import Jewish tradition into their churches" seems to me like a revisionist idea or at least a surprising one.

Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

...and for almost all of its history, Christianity has not been ethnic. That, in fact, is considered to be one of the reasons it flourished in the Roman world despite the great number of other sects it competed against.

 

[cloudyday2]

Most of the Messianic Christians I have known are ethnic Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah. They simply value their ethnic and religious heritage and see no reason to give it up in order to be a Christian, especially since Christ saw himself as the fulfillment of Hebrew religious thought.

IOW, the idea of Christians who "import Jewish tradition into their churches" seems to me like a revisionist idea or at least a surprising one.

My impression is that many Messianic Christians are not ethnic Jews but Gentile Christians who feel they should follow Jewish traditions because Jesus was Jewish.

 

[Albion]

My impression is that many Messianic Christians are not ethnic Jews but Gentile Christians who feel they should follow Jewish traditions because Jesus was Jewish.

Hmm. I can't say you're mistaken about that although that hasn't been my own experience, but it's not what I thought it was all about. Then again, most of us have not met too many messianic Christians.

 

[cloudyday2]

Hmm. I can't say you're mistaken about that although that hasn't been my own experience, but it's not what I thought it was all about. Then again, most of us have not met too many messianic Christians.

One of our employees was a normal Protestant who switched to a Messianic Christian church. I talked to him about his reasoning in detail, and he was motivated by the verses where Jesus said he respected the Jewish Law. He seemed very sincere and earnest about it all. His church is apparently made-up of Gentiles who are attempting to observe Jewish traditions from the Bible. FWIW - this is only one data point.

 

[Albion]

One of our employees was a normal Protestant who switched to a Messianic Christian church. I talked to him about his reasoning in detail, and he was motivated by the verses where Jesus said he respected the Jewish Law. He seemed very sincere and earnest about it all. His church is apparently made-up of Gentiles who are attempting to observe Jewish traditions from the Bible. FWIW - this is only one data point.

Hmm. Well, then there are some and I just haven't met any.

Maybe it's some sort of trend although it doesn't quite add up for me. I mean, Christianity is quite obviously indebted to the Old Testament Hebrew religion as it is, with innumerable examples of that fact in its rituals and beliefs.

 

[cloudyday2]

Hmm. Well, then there are some and I just haven't met any.

Maybe it's some sort of trend although it doesn't quite add up for me. I mean, Christianity is quite obviously indebted to the Old Testament Hebrew religion as it is, with innumerable examples of that fact in its rituals and beliefs.

That's true. What puzzles me though is their desire to reinvent the wheel. If they feel that Christians should follow Jewish Law then why not convert to Judaism and attend a synagogue while believing privately that Jesus was the promised Messiah? Why try to reinvent Judaism while not actually joining the Jewish ethnic group? It seems that Judaism is inherently ethnic. People didn't join the ethnicity so they could follow the Torah, they followed the Torah so they could join the ethnicity.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Seems to me that Jesus being Jewish implies only one thing, that he was ethnically Jewish. There are a lot of Jews after all. For instance, Andrew Klavan is a Jew, does this mean he goes to synagogue? No he goes to Church, he is a Christian Jew. Karl Marx was a Jew, does this mean Karl Marx was a loyal adherent of Judaism? He was probably the least faithful to Judaism a Jew ever was.

Jesus being Jewish within the Christian tradition means one thing, that he was the Jewish Messiah and that as a result he expanded the community of God to everyone (not just the Jews). Obviously Judaisers claim we need to follow the ceremonial law in order to please God (if you aren't circumcised you can't possibly embody Christ). To me they focus on the externals rather than the internal things which Jesus emphasized that really matter. Jesus told us that what we eat doesn't defile us, but what comes out of us. Mark the Gospel writer I think quite rightly interprets this as Jesus declaring all foods clean but this unacceptable to the strict Legalist who insists eating bacon makes one impure.

I particularly don't regard modern Judaism or any religion except Nicene Christianity as a valid spiritual option. It's content of these faiths that make them valid or not.

 

[Robban]

The message today is unchanged.

"Repent"

Return, repentence is not so much about actions but what causes the actions.

The heart is where thoughts come from,

depravity, hate, slander, envy, materialism.

Repentence of the heart,
change of thinking.

All, everyone and everywhere, repent.

It is not religious jargon, it is the solution.

 

[FireDragon76]

A Jewish Jesus leads some Christians to import Jewish traditions into their churches, thus creating Messianic Christian churches. Does accepting the contemporary spiritual validity of Judaism imply that all Christians should practice Judaism? For most of its history, Judaism has been ethnic.

I'd say it's more than a bit anachronistic since Second Temple Judaism was far more variegated in its practices.

In the early years, all the Christians were ethnic Jews born to Jewish parents. Traditionally Judaism has not sought converts. The Hasmonean kings forced some of their conquered foes to convert to Judaism, but I'm not aware of any other efforts. So why should a Gentile Christian think that he/she should convert to Judaism?

Jews did engage in proselytism during the Hellenistic period (this is why Jesus mentions proselytes, as he would not have mentioned it if it were not a thing), but Jewish proselytism has tended to be low key for a variety of reasons, not all of which are purely religious (for most of Jewish history, it was a crime to seek to convert Christians or Muslims to Judaism).

 

[cloudyday2]

Jews did engage in proselytism during the Hellenistic period (this is why Jesus mentions proselytes, as he would not have mentioned it if it were not a thing), but Jewish proselytism has tended to be low key for a variety of reasons, not all of which are purely religious (for most of Jewish history, it was a crime to seek to convert Christians or Muslims to Judaism).

I believe the proselytism mentioned by Jesus was Jews of one sect attempting to recruit from Jews of a competing sect. But who knows.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

Jewish proselytism has tended to be low key for a variety of reasons, not all of which are purely religious (for most of Jewish history, it was a crime to seek to convert Christians or Muslims to Judaism).

We Jews gots a good thing goin and we aint sharing nuthin with no-bodies.

 

[FireDragon76]

I believe the proselytism mentioned by Jesus was Jews of one sect attempting to recruit from Jews of a competing sect. But who knows.

Proselyte referred to the conversion of non-Jews, not the conversion of unobservant Jews to observance.

Judaism doesn't have a notion of justification by faith so the idea of people needing to adhere to a particular creed or even religion isn't present. Nonetheless, Jews have engaged in activities to spread the ideals of their religion, even among non-Jews, for instance, the Noachide Law.