Jesus's Divinity?

[fschmidt]

If Moses were commanded to kill people, would that command apply to you, too? You're saying that because MOSES was commanded to tell people that YHWH was going to deliver them, then there is a universal command to use the name YHWH. Really?

That just depends on whether you think the Torah applies to you or not. I think it applies to me, so I follow it.

 

[yonah_mishael]

That just depends on whether you think the Torah applies to you or not. I think it applies to me, so I follow it.

Really? So, let's go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp and kill our brothers and companions and neighbors!

And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. (Ex. 32.27 KJV)​

It is a mistake to take every single thing in the Bible as if it were written to you. You will end up doing a LOT of things that you are not supposed to do.

 

[fschmidt]

Really? So, let's go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp and kill our brothers and companions and neighbors!

That was related to a specific incident. In contrast, Exodus 3:15 says "this is how I am to be remembered in every generation".

 

[yonah_mishael]

That was related to a specific incident. In contrast, Exodus 3:15 says "this is how I am to be remembered in every generation".

So, the fact that God's name is forever יהוה means that you are supposed to pronounce the name? I'm still waiting for said commandment from the Torah - the command for people to pronounce that name specifically.

 

[fschmidt]

Hoshiyya, your religion shows as "Non-Trinitarian-Messianic". What does that mean exactly?

 

[pat34lee]

So, the fact that God's name is forever יהוה means that you are supposed to pronounce the name? I'm still waiting for said commandment from the Torah - the command for people to pronounce that name specifically.

How many commands does it take? And doesn't the fact that the particular spelling you used is in the Tanakh over 7,000 times alone or with modifiers tell you its importance? That reminds me of one other other command. Deut 31:10-11

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Numbers 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.​

 

[yonah_mishael]

How many commands does it take? And doesn't the fact that the particular spelling you used is in the Tanakh over 7,000 times alone or with modifiers tell you its importance? That reminds me of one other other command. Deut 31:10-11

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Numbers 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.​

You're taking these verses too literally. The word "name" means something like "reputation" or "fame." It doesn't mean that the name YHWH would spread throughout the earth. It means that people would HEAR of the God of Israel and he would become famous among the nations.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Hoshiyya, your religion shows as "Non-Trinitarian-Messianic". What does that mean exactly?

It means I am a monotheist, no exceptions or word-games. I follow Judaism. Judaism is monotheist. The TNK teaches monotheism, without compromise. Since Trinitarianism and Mormonism and all these other things desire to be called "monotheism" also, we pure monotheists often have to use the word Unitarian to specify our beliefs, even though uni- and mono- literally mean the same thing.

I am Messianic also, but I do not worship the Messiah as a god, anymore than those who consider Schneerson the Messiah, or those who considered Bar Kokva the Messiah.

 

[Hoshiyya]

How many commands does it take? And doesn't the fact that the particular spelling you used is in the Tanakh over 7,000 times alone or with modifiers tell you its importance? That reminds me of one other other command. Deut 31:10-11

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Numbers 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isaiah 52:6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.​

Your interpretation seems to contradict himself, or you would have to say this all refers to the future, for historically, his [literal, actual] name has NOT been declared over the earth. He has been called "LORD" or "Domini" or "Iehovah" or "Jehovah", or more recently, "Yaway".

I THINK I know more or less how the name actually should be pronounced, but I can't prove it more than anyone else. So since we cannot prove this or that is the correct pronounciation, how can there even be a correct pronounciation, as far as this generation today is concerned ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

Pat, I'd like for you to consider what Yonah said about Shem meaning honor, reputation, in light of this verse:

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

I could have picked any of the verses you quoted, but this one is especially telling.
He is raising up a nation in the earth, which will become part of history, history-books, popular cultural consciousness, etc. and HENCE the God of Israel will become famous on a large-scale, rather than the obscurity he had when Noah or Abraham, and part of their households, were the only who knew him well.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Gen 28:22, Jacob calls the pillar בֵּית אֱלֹהִים

Based on the rule of first mention (in this case, the mention of the pouring of oil in Gen 28:18, which is the act of mashach), we learn then that the concept of mashiach - its first mention as a concept (not word), that is, the first mention of anything mashach'ed (forgive the heblish, but there are people here who don't know Hebrew) (annointed, oil poured on) is a stone pillar, and is itself called Beit Elokeim. This then is where the Torah teaches that Messiah is the House of G-d - that the concept of Mashiach, at its root, is identified with the House of G-d.

Thanks for the clarification. It makes sense.

But just because something is the House of Elokim, does that tell us anything about whether he should be worshipped?
Paul even refers to Satan as a "god", which is a step above being a house, yet this status is not telling us anything about worship.
Being a god, in whatever sense of the term, and being worthy of worship, are not the same thing.

I think the further back in time we go, the more likely we would be of hearing Jews saying things like "oh, Baal is definetely real; we are not allowed to worship him, however, for various reasons", whereas today we are more likely to hear "Ba'al should not be worshipped, simply because he does not exist."

You mentioned two very interesting things. First, the tradition of Shem being Melchizedek. Since Shem had a father (Noach) and mother (Naamah or Batenosh), we then understand that "being without father or mother" does not mean you are uncreated, it simple means you are a priest even though you are not a proven descendant of Aharon. Hence, Melchizedek being "without father or mother" should be understood as having nothing to do with Yeshua's origins, except to the extent it tells us he is not a Levite.

The second is that you said "the agent of HaShem who does the work of HaShem, and is called HaShem".

This is very interesting to me, because it sounds like it could be a perfect description of the Malak Hashem, (Sar Panim, etc) who is sometimes just called Hashem (this is a major point in the Targumim).

 

[pat34lee]

You're taking these verses too literally. The word "name" means something like "reputation" or "fame." It doesn't mean that the name YHWH would spread throughout the earth. It means that people would HEAR of the God of Israel and he would become famous among the nations.

You are missing the direct context of what he is saying and adding your own spin. It is too easy to do so when his name is so hidden in English, or when you are taught to replace it in Hebrew. The nations from then to today all had their own idols, and they had names. Would you deny the one true God his own identity when he obviously thought it so important?

When the name is reinserted where it belongs, the meaning is hard to miss:

Isaiah 42:8 I am YHWH: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.​

The verse in Malachi:

Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith YHWH Sabaoth, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.​

The list I gave was just a small fraction of the verses about his name and the use of it.

 

[pat34lee]

Your interpretation seems to contradict himself, or you would have to say this all refers to the future, for historically, his [literal, actual] name has NOT been declared over the earth. He has been called "LORD" or "Domini" or "Iehovah" or "Jehovah", or more recently, "Yaway".

I THINK I know more or less how the name actually should be pronounced, but I can't prove it more than anyone else. So since we cannot prove this or that is the correct pronounciation, how can there even be a correct pronounciation, as far as this generation today is concerned ?

There have always been some who called him by name. It has never been hidden in the Hebrew, only in translations. Anyway, this prophecy is of the end times, and has not been fulfilled yet. The true language will be returned and we will call him by name.

As far as correct, can you be sure that anything you do is 100% correct? If we live by faith, that includes having faith that he knows our limitations and judges us accordingly.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

what NAME has all power been given to ? the seven sons of scieva tried to use to cast out demons and they were overcome, they had the right 'name', but not the same results as the apostles....

 

[Josephus]

That was related to a specific incident. In contrast, Exodus 3:15 says "this is how I am to be remembered in every generation".

Exodus 3:15, actually commands us to hide G-ds name.

וַיֹּאמֶר עוֹד אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כֹּה-תֹאמַר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם, וְזֶה זִכְרִי לְדֹר דֹּר

You bolded l'dor dor (in every generation). Which interestingly enough is a defective spelling since it's missing a vav in the Hebrew. It should read לְדֹר וַדֹּר. Why is the vav missing? Better yet, before answering that, let's examine another missing vav in this verse. Two defective spellings in one bible verse. That's reason to pause and reexamine it. Two witnesses so to speak. Let me show you:

וַיֹּאמֶר עוֹד אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כֹּה-תֹאמַר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם, וְזֶה זִכְרִי לְדֹר דֹּר

L'olam. Forever. As in the phrase "zeh shemi l'olam" - this is my Name forever. Yet the olam word, if you notice, is missing a vav. It should be spelled לְעֹוַלָם. But it's not. It's on purposely spelled defectively. In your English bibles, and as it's pronounced in the reading of the Torah, we understand it as if it is fully spelled - l'olam, forever. However the Torah scroll is written without vowels. As such the word appears in the Torah scroll as simply:

לעלם

Which can be read as l'olam, AND OR it can be read as l'elem. In fact, it is spelled as l'elem. What does elem mean in Hebrew? To conceal.

In short, Ex 3:15 is saying literally in the Hebrew:

זה שמי לעלם


this is my name to conceal, and this is my memorial to all generations.This I learned from Rabbi Yaakov Culi in his amazing work called Me'Am Loez, the Torah Anthology. Literally he says:

G-d said, "this is My Name forever." The Hebrew word "forever" is le-olam. But here, it is written without a Vav. Thus it can also be read as le-elem, "for concealment." In speaking of the Tetragramaton (YHVK), G-d said "this is my name to conceal." This means it is forbidden to pronounce the Tetragrammaton as it is written.

Yalkut Me'Am Loez, The Torah Anthonlogy, Book 4, page 93. (c) 1978.

Now why is the vav missing? I surmise that the missing vav alludes to the number 6, since it is the sixth letter of the alephbet, and thus it alludes to 6 thousand years that the Name of G-d is commanded to be concealed. Since the prophet writes that in the World to Come "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know YHVK: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says YHVK..." Jeremiah 31:34.


But all that to simply say that it is Ex 3:15 where we actually are given the explicit literal command "This (YHVK) is My Name to conceal." It couldn't be any more explicit than that.

Shalom.

 

[Josephus]

Thanks for the clarification. It makes sense.

But just because something is the House of Elokim, does that tell us anything about whether he should be worshipped?

Of course not. The Torah is clear "Lo ish El..." only HaShem is ever called an ish in the phrase "HaShem ish milchama"

Paul even refers to Satan as a "god", which is a step above being a house, yet this status is not telling us anything about worship.

Correct.

Being a god, in whatever sense of the term, and being worthy of worship, are not the same thing.

Correct. Even Moshe was made El to Pharoah.

 

[pat34lee]

Exodus 3:15, actually commands us to hide G-ds name.

וַיֹּאמֶר עוֹד אֱלֹהִים אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כֹּה-תֹאמַר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי אֲבֹתֵיכֶם אֱלֹהֵי אַבְרָהָם אֱלֹהֵי יִצְחָק וֵאלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב, שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם; זֶה-שְּׁמִי לְעֹלָם, וְזֶה זִכְרִי לְדֹר דֹּר

You bolded l'dor dor (in every generation). Which interestingly enough is a defective spelling since it's missing a vav in the Hebrew. It should read לְדֹר וַדֹּר. Why is the vav missing? Better yet, before answering that, let's examine another missing vav in this verse. Two defective spellings in one bible verse. That's reason to pause and reexamine it. Two witnesses so to speak. Let me show you:

But all that to simply say that it is Ex 3:15 where we actually are given the explicit literal command "This (YHVK) is My Name to conceal." It couldn't be any more explicit than that.

Shalom.

Talk about making up your own theology. You take several things for granted. First, there are multiple spellings of many words in Hebrew. What makes you think the two you give are mistakes and not other words or variant spellings? If the missing letters are mistakes, there is no reason to believe they were done intentionally instead of being accidental. You cannot make rules from exceptions when it defies every other rule, including common sense.

 

[Danoh]

John 1 portrays Him as God manifest in the flesh and King of Israel. In fact, such is the case throughout John. In John 2, He relates that He will raise Himself from the dead. In John 7, for example, where He refers to Himself as "I Am." In John 9, He tells the blind man He healed that He "is the Son of God."

I'll leave you with this one from John 10:

30. I and my Father are one.
31. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33. The Jews answered him; For a good work we stone thee not: but for blasphemy; and because thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 

[Josephus]

Talk about making up your own theology. You take several things for granted. First, there are multiple spellings of many words in Hebrew. What makes you think the two you give are mistakes and not other words or variant spellings? If the missing letters are mistakes, there is no reason to believe they were done intentionally instead of being accidental. You cannot make rules from exceptions when it defies every other rule, including common sense.

No one is making up a theology here. The text literally says:

זה שמי לעלם

Which can be literally read "zeh shemi l'elem," or "zeh shemi l'olam" -both and. Not either or.

It means both "this is my name to conceal" AND "this is my name forever." We have the responsibility to accept both understandings, and not exclude the other. In the Torah scroll, there are no vowels (which literally translates this phrase to "my name to conceal"). What we have as far as how to read it, is what is handed to us by tradition in the pronunciation of the words, which is part of the oral Torah (which literally translates the phrase to "my name forever"). I don't pick and choose between what is literally written in the Torah, and what is oral Torah. I accept both.

The original inspired Hebrew dictation of the Torah had no vowels - not just because vowels weren't invented yet, but because the Hebrew of the Torah is multidimensional, so as to give additional meaning to the text beyond the face value or what is passed through tradition as the oral Torah. After all, we learn that there is more to the text than just what appears at first glance, or even second glance, from even the very first letter of the bible... the oversized bet - which teaches that we are to ask of even every letter why it is the way it is. That the heart of Torah is derived by asking questions of it. It is not adding to the Torah. It is letting the Torah explain itself. There are of course limits, but this post and thread is not to discuss what those are or what the rules of Torah hermeneutics is.

The phrase in question is literally spelled in the Torah in Ex 3:15:

זה שמי לעלם

which literally is "zeh shemi l'elem" "this is My Name to conceal." It is only from the oral tradition, the oral Torah, that we learn to read it as

זה שמי לְעֹוַלָם

This vav is missing in every single Hebrew Torah text in existence. Unless you don't believe that G-d's word is preserved in every generation, the Torah we have today is the Torah that Moshe wrote. Every intentional mispelling, grammar error, missing word, empty space, yod, tagin, half sized, oversized, reversed letters, in the Torah - is for a purpose. To give us a self-extracting archive of the Wisdom of G-d in how to love G-d and others.

This vav is missing not because it's a mistake. But because it's on purpose (we must assume so, or else we must call into question the integrity of the Word of G-d as handed to us). The vav is missing from what is read, not from what is written. It is read l'olam, but it is literally spelled l'elem. To ignore that it is written l'elem is to subtract from the Torah.

I choose to believe what is literally written here. His name is to be concealed. This is a clear Torah prohibition. In fact, the very idea that one reads לעלם one way when it is written another, teaches one that one must also do the same when it comes to G-d's Name, the tetragrammaton. This is not a made up theology. This is what is obvious from looking at the Hebrew of the text itself. To not accept it, in my opinion, is what would be making up a theology, or in this case, ignoring it.

 

[BukiRob]

As to the second, he would not have said the right hand of power, but the right hand of Yahweh. Speaking the name was blasphemy to them despite the fact that Torah commands us to do so.

That was a direct quote from scripture. NIV says Mighty one. KJV says Power, NASB says Power. CJB says HaG’vurah (translated power) Youngs says Power....

Think its pretty clear, what was copied from the NASB is correct