Jesus was a Pacifist

[TruthsetsUFree]

what do Jesus and Don Quijote have in common?

 

[TScott]

Mat 10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.


Yep, the words of a pacifist, if ever I heard one!

Please. Read scripture in context. Jesus isn't advocating violence here. He is saying that the word he preaches will set brother against brother. He knows that his preachings are unorthodox and that there will be trouble.

 

[Blackguard_]

Luke 22:36
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one


How could a pacificist have said the above? And you can't allegorize this one unless you can tell me what the purse and scrip represents.

what do Jesus and Don Quijote have in common?

Both were hopeless romantics in an unromantic world?

 

[TScott]

Luke 22:36
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one


How could a pacificist have said the above? And you can't allegorize this one unless you can tell me what the purse and scrip represents.

Jesus wasn't asking his disciples to take up the sword to defend him, he is only fulfilling prophesy. Look at the very next verse:

For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

He is referring to the line at the end of Isaiah 53.

Look what happens later in this chapter of Luke when the sword is drawn in his defense he admonishes Peter and heals the man he has injured.

 

[myways]

If Jesus is God, and God told the Israelites to go into Cannan and kill all the men, women and children, and livestock, then how can anyone consider Him a pacifist?

--Dave

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

As a member of the armed forces I will admit that the US has been in wars that we should not have been in(i.e. Vietnam, Korea, and the second Gulf war). As far as World War 2, I believe we made the right decision on going to war because our military was attacked. We had a right to go to war against the Taliban. Yes Jesus promoted peace in the New Testement, but in the Old Testement, if Israel was under attack from another force, God ordered Israel to fight and defend itself. What Jesus was talking about was outward aggression toward another for no cause. Like when He told Peter to put the sword away, Peter was showing outward aggression.

Interesting that you didn't remark on US involvement in the War on Iraq. Is that because Iraq was not the attacker?

 

[arunma]

If Jesus is God, and God told the Israelites to go into Cannan and kill all the men, women and children, and livestock, then how can anyone consider Him a pacifist?

--Dave

Well, my fellow Calvinist, the answer is simple. Although I think you've brought up a perfectly valid example (since Jesus is God), one need not even look to the Old Testament to make this argument. We see in the book of Revelation that at the Second Advent, it will be Christ himself who in righteousness does judge and makes war (Revelation 19:11).

And that is the important point. It is God alone who can make righteous war. When the preincarnate Christ lead the host of Israel into battle, he waged holy war against the enemies of God, and it was only at God's command. Recall that when God did not command war, the Israelites were not permitted to engage in it. When the Babylonians invaded the Kingdom, the Prophet Jeremiah encouraged the people to not resist them; in fact he bought a field in conquered land.

Now if ever God sends a prophet who commands Christians to engage in holy war under the Lordship of Jesus Christ, then I will be the first to join the Lord's army. In the meantime, I will take the words of Jesus and his Apostles literally, and not return violence with violence.

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Wow, I did not know that you were a Calvinist until just now.

 

[arunma]

Wow, I did not know that you were a Calvinist until just now.

Is that bad?

 

[Chrysalis Kat]

Is that bad?

I would not have thought it unless you stated it.

You're a model ambassador for Calvinism.

 

[arunma]

Why thank you! Now I only hope I can live up to this expectation.

 

[TScott]

Well, my fellow Calvinist, the answer is simple. Although I think you've brought up a perfectly valid example (since Jesus is God), one need not even look to the Old Testament to make this argument. We see in the book of Revelation that at the Second Advent, it will be Christ himself who in righteousness does judge and makes war (Revelation 19:11).

Yet many Christians have doubts over the book of Revelation. Even Luther and Calvin had grave doubts over the canonicity of the Book of Revelation, as have many scholars over the ages. There are many Christians and scholars who believe that Revelation is referring to events that took place in the first century. I think the Jesus seen in Revelation is a different Jesus that we see in the rest of the NT. I think the whole style of the book of Revelation is so different from not only the fourth Gospel but also John's Epistles that they could not possibly have been written by the same person.

 

[arunma]

Yet many Christians have doubts over the book of Revelation. Even Luther and Calvin had grave doubts over the canonicity of the Book of Revelation, as have many scholars over the ages. There are many Christians and scholars who believe that Revelation is referring to events that took place in the first century. I think the Jesus seen in Revelation is a different Jesus that we see in the rest of the NT. I think the whole style of the book of Revelation is so different from not only the fourth Gospel but also John's Epistles that they could not possibly have been written by the same person.

Respectfully, I don't agree with this conclusion. Such men as Bishop Saint Athanasius believed that Revelation ought to be in the canon. And ultimately, the church has accepted its authority. We trust that the early church correctly constructed the canon, and so we accept the book of Revelation as useful for doctrine, teaching, and rebuke.

 

[Psychobug]

Another point of discussion.....how does the cleansing of the temple fit into the image of a pacifistic Christ?

 

[Martinez]

And why does the word pacifist have the word fist in it?

is it short for pacify with the fist?

 

[TScott]

Respectfully, I don't agree with this conclusion. Such men as Bishop Saint Athanasius believed that Revelation ought to be in the canon. And ultimately, the church has accepted its authority. We trust that the early church correctly constructed the canon, and so we accept the book of Revelation as useful for doctrine, teaching, and rebuke.

I'm not sure what conclusion you disagree with since the only conclusion I drew in my post was that I didn't believe the same person that wrote revelation could be the same person who wrote the Gospel of John or his epistles. As far as revelation being canonical I think that it should be pointed out that through the ages there has certainly not been a consensus on that. Marcion did not include it at all in his canon, Luther spoke very disparagingly of it and Calvin did not include it in any of his essays on the New Testament.

 

[arunma]

Another point of discussion.....how does the cleansing of the temple fit into the image of a pacifistic Christ?

I don't believe that Christ is pacifist so much as I believe that he is non-violent. I think the Bible presents sufficient evidence that sometimes war is necessary, though sometimes undesirable (I didn't differentiate between pacifism and non-violence earlier, but I can see that some people may not recognize this).

Now regarding the cleansing of the Temple, the Bible is clear that Jesus made a whip of cords. He did not make a weapon that was capable of injuring anyone. And furthermore, he drove the money changers out of the Temple by overturning the tables upon which the currency sat. The Bible does not record that he physically attacked anyone. This would not even be a very practical means of removing the money changers, considering the large size of the Temple court.

Therefore, it is not a proper exegesis of the text to suggest that Jesus used physical violence during his cleansings of the Temple.

 

[Martinez]

I think most people say the word pacifist with the wrong pronunciation.

it should actually be pronounced______ Pack-a-fist.

Meaning_____ to have peace you must first prepare for war!

 

[arunma]

I think most people say the word pacifist with the wrong pronunciation.

it should actually be pronounced______ Pack-a-fist.

Meaning_____ to have peace you must first prepare for war!

Setting aside self-defense, for the moment, when should a Christian ever have to raise his fist?

 

[Martinez]

Setting aside self-defense, for the moment, when should a Christian ever have to raise his fist?

At a protest?