Jesus vs Paul

[Strong in Him]

I am also giving warning about false prophets and quoting Jesus.....Does that mean I can never be a false prophet?

If you look at my post I said that Paul was not a false prophet because he believed in, preached and taught about Jesus.

This theme seems to be quite popular among televangelists/mega churches in the USA and they have huge # of followers both from the USA and overseas.

And there are/were many, many more sincere, respected and well loved Christians who don't believe it, or maybe never heard of it - like Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Lord Shaftesbury, Francis of Assisi, William Booth etc.

If the Bible is really divinely-inspired and intended to unite people, the writings will be homogeneous despite being written by different people separated by eons.
It would be like written by just one person.

It is; that's what I'm saying. One theme, because all the authors were inspired by one person - the Holy Spirit.

It also won't make sense for God to protect His written Word for the last thousands of years only to leave modern translators to their wits and make mistakes.

The Gospel has not been changed since Jesus proclaimed it; I don't believe there have been any mistakes made over doctrine The wages of sin was death when Paul wrote it and it is still the same now, however sophisticated we may have become in the meantime.

How else would Christ fulfill Matthew 10:34-36?

Did you read what I wrote before?
In some families, or communities, those who don't accept Christ are opposed to those who do - even members of the same family may turn on one another. I've read that a Muslim family will reject someone who converts to Christianity, they may even try to kill them.

Jeremiah 31:33-34

The NEW covenant that God made with people was confirmed, and sealed, by the Lord Jesus when he gave his life for us and poured out his blood for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28.
I find it perplexing that you seem to doubt the Bible was divinely inspired, think most of the NT was written by a false prophet and are saying that God allows mistakes in Scripture, to deceive people - yet you quote Scripture to prove whatever point you are trying to make.

There has been many instances for me. I was specifically instructed to sought out a specific teaching which I had to google first so I could find the verse. However, it struck me in a different fashion like something could be oddly wrong about the specific verse I was referred to.

The Holy Spirit has brought many verses to my mind too, but they were verses that I had previously learned, or read. It's also possible that the Spirit could bring a reference to mind - a particular Psalm and verse number, when you have never read that Psalm before. But we have access to Bibles, to online tools, to concordances etc and can look such a reference up. If someone did not have a Bible and had never heard of it, the reference John 3:16 would mean nothing.

The Laws are what makes a child of God, a child of God....

No they aren't.
If someone accepts that Jesus died for their sins; that the wages of sin is death but that Jesus took that punishment for us, if they receive him as their Saviour, submit their lives to him and are filled with his Holy Spirit, they are born again and are a child of God.
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children" Romans 8:16.
Jesus also said that we cannot enter the kingdom of God unless we are born of the Spirit - born again. And we cannot obey Jesus' command to love as he loved us - i.e laying down our lives for our enemies - unless we know, and have received, his love. Human love isn't strong enough to forgive, and die for, those who hate us.

 

[timewerx]

It is; that's what I'm saying. One theme, because all the authors were inspired by one person - the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel has not been changed since Jesus proclaimed it; I don't believe there have been any mistakes made over doctrine The wages of sin was death when Paul wrote it and it is still the same now, however sophisticated we may have become in the meantime.

Not one theme. Like for example, King Solomon said, someone who does not save their resources is a fool. Christ on the other hand said, spend your money to win friends so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Did you read what I wrote before?
In some families, or communities, those who don't accept Christ are opposed to those who do - even members of the same family may turn on one another. I've read that a Muslim family will reject someone who converts to Christianity, they may even try to kill them.

These are very obvious facts.

What about the less obvious facts like within the Christian religion?

I find it perplexing that you seem to doubt the Bible was divinely inspired, think most of the NT was written by a false prophet and are saying that God allows mistakes in Scripture, to deceive people - yet you quote Scripture to prove whatever point you are trying to make.

Exactly, I'm doing the same thing that Christ did before. Quote from something you cannot deny but in the end, it is the Holy Spirit that I will endorse alone.

God allows mistakes because some mistakes could lead to a greater good...

If someone did not have a Bible and had never heard of it, the reference John 3:16 would mean nothing.

The Holy Spirit brought me the teachings themselves so it won't matter whether I had the Bible or not.

If someone accepts that Jesus died for their sins; that the wages of sin is death but that Jesus took that punishment for us, if they receive him as their Saviour, submit their lives to him and are filled with his Holy Spirit, they are born again and are a child of God.

Then you should pack your stuff and leave for a remote jungle in the Amazon because many are dying there never heard about Jesus.

Am I right?

 

[Strong in Him]

Not one theme. Like for example, King Solomon said, someone who does not save their resources is a fool. Christ on the other hand said, spend your money to win friends so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

The theme of the Bible is God's love for his people - people who have rebelled against, and chosen to reject, him and cannot earn that love, or a second chance.

These are very obvious facts.

What about the less obvious facts like within the Christian religion?

Like what?
My answer was in response to a post from you in which you seemed to claim that God wrote the Bible to divide people. You claim that the verses in Matthew were a prophecy which Jesus came to fulfil - i.e to deliberately confuse and mislead.

Exactly, I'm doing the same thing that Christ did before. Quote from something you cannot deny but in the end, it is the Holy Spirit that I will endorse alone.

The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible to be written and compiled, and it is he who interprets and applied it to us. Yet you seem to doubt many of the Bible's teachings - like how you only accept a few of Paul's writings.
That does not sound like an endorsement of the Spirit or his work.

The Holy Spirit brought me the teachings themselves so it won't matter whether I had the Bible or not.

Without the Bible, you don't know - and you can't expect us to agree - that these teachings are from God. Anyone can say "God told me ..... this teaching came from the Holy Spirit", but if it is something that is contrary to Scripture - like the example I gave from Mr Moon - then it is NOT from God.

Then you should pack your stuff and leave for a remote jungle in the Amazon because many are dying there never heard about Jesus.

There are people who have never heard of Jesus, and if God told me he wanted me to go and teach them, I'd be on the next plane.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Besides error in the text used by most Christian Bibles, there were differences between denominations as to which books were part of the New Testament.

The Peshitta version of the New Testament is thought to show a continuation of the tradition of the Diatessaron and Old Syriac versions, displaying some lively 'Western' renderings (particularly clear in the Acts of the Apostles). It combines with this some of the more complex 'Byzantine' readings of the 5th century. One unusual feature of the Peshitta is the absence of 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation.​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshitta

For more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Development_of_the_New_Testament_canon#The_Early_Collections

 

[timewerx]

The theme of the Bible is God's love for his people - people who have rebelled against, and chosen to reject, him and cannot earn that love, or a second chance.

Most other religions do. It's in the details which set them apart.

Like what?
My answer was in response to a post from you in which you seemed to claim that God wrote the Bible to divide people. You claim that the verses in Matthew were a prophecy which Jesus came to fulfil - i.e to deliberately confuse and mislead.

Based on Matthew 10:34-36. How is Christ fulfilling it? By His teachings. Where do you base His teachings from? The Bible. Therefore, the Bible is being used to fulfill Matthew 10:34-36.

The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible to be written and compiled, and it is he who interprets and applied it to us. Yet you seem to doubt many of the Bible's teachings - like how you only accept a few of Paul's writings.
That does not sound like an endorsement of the Spirit or his work.

If the Holy Spirit endorses the Bible, that means, the Holy Spirit show favoritism. Like how are people from undiscovered tribes supposed to get hold of something they don't even know exist?

Without the Bible, you don't know - and you can't expect us to agree - that these teachings are from God. Anyone can say "God told me ..... this teaching came from the Holy Spirit", but if it is something that is contrary to Scripture - like the example I gave from Mr Moon - then it is NOT from God.

Yes I do. If you use the Bible as a standard then it places a lot of people at a huge disadvantage. Not everyone even knows it exists, some could lose their lives or be imprisoned for having it in their possession. It would be unfair to non-western people, but I don't think God is unfair, and rightfully so, Christ did not endorse the scriptures. He only quoted from it but that's about it.

There are people who have never heard of Jesus, and if God told me he wanted me to go and teach them, I'd be on the next plane.

The most important thing about missions is the relief work that goes with it. When we give back to the poor what is entitled to them. Secular humanitarian work brings the same amount of good.

 

[nomadictheist]

(f) None of the above.

Although Christ said, that Christ Himself will cause the division (Matt 10:34-36), how will He do it if He's "not here"?

The obvious answer is His teachings and where do you find some of them? The Bible.

Christ also said that only "few will find it". This means most of Christianity is lost and divided against each other.

The cause is the Bible because it is EASY to interpret it in so many different ways and that is how it divided us.

Jesus, the Christ, never said He would cause division within His church. To the contrary, He said...

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Additionally, "They will know you are My disciples when you love one another..."

The "sword" He referred to in Matthew 10 was the divisions in a family and a people that would result when somebody believed in Him, while the others remained in unbelief. He makes many other references in His teaching to the divisions that will come between His children and the world, in the form of persecution, killing, hatred, slander, etc.

 

[nomadictheist]

Christ tells us not to believe those that claim to see him such as Paul, Joseph Smith, And this guy too and probably countless others.

I believe that the passage which you refer to is Matthew 24. In order to understand Jesus teachings, you must take them all in the context of what He is teaching about when He is speaking.

In this case, He is speaking about His second coming - not a vision or a select appearance. The context makes this clear... "As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet...""

The message here is clear: When Jesus comes again everyone will know (see later in this teaching), so if people come and say "Jesus has come back, and He's [any place they choose]" don't believe them. When Jesus comes again we'll all know it.

John (the apostle) also saw Jesus in a vision, many years after Paul's conversion. Does that make Him also a false prophet, in your eyes?

We are given something by which to test everyone who claims to be from God: the Holy Scriptures. If Paul's message disagreed with the teachings of Jesus and the scriptures, as did Joseph Smith's teachings, then he would be a false prophet. As it is, he was a chosen apostle to the gentiles, as the other apostles testify of him, as well as God Himself. The Lord told Ananias, one of the believers in Damascus, that Paul was His "chosen instrument" to carry His "name to the gentiles..."

To say that this is false, and that Paul is a false prophet, is also to say that the entire early church outside of the Jewish believers was nothing but a cult. It's also saying that every single apostle of Jesus was deceived immediately by a false prophet, and thus became false prophets themselves as they endorsed him and sent him out with their blessing. This would make all of Christianity a cult, fathered by false prophets. That would make Jesus Himself a false prophet, since He declared to Peter that "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven..." And Peter is the one who testifies to the church in his written letters that Paul's writings are a part of scripture.

 

[timewerx]

Jesus, the Christ, never said He would cause division within His church. To the contrary, He said...

"A house divided against itself cannot stand."

Additionally, "They will know you are My disciples when you love one another..."

The "sword" He referred to in Matthew 10 was the divisions in a family and a people that would result when somebody believed in Him, while the others remained in unbelief. He makes many other references in His teaching to the divisions that will come between His children and the world, in the form of persecution, killing, hatred, slander, etc.

That is assuming all of our 2 billion plus Christians all over the world belong to His Church.

But I'm afraid the answer is going to be no. Christ said only few will find it.

 

[nomadictheist]

That is assuming all of our 2 billion plus Christians all over the world belong to His Church.

But I'm afraid the answer is going to be no. Christ said only few will find it.

No it's not. It's assuming that the early church was comprised of Christians. I assumed no such thing. This is nothing more than a straw man coupled with a red herring.

There's no doubt that there are people who identify themselves as Christians who actually do not know the Lord Jesus Christ. However, Paul was not one of them. We have the witness of Jesus and the apostles to confirm that.

 

[Strong in Him]

Most other religions do. It's in the details which set them apart.

Details?
You mean like the fact that all other religions are about how mankind can find God, and Christianity is about how God became a human being to find us?
Or the fact that some, maybe most, other religions teach what sacrifices people have to offer to try to appease their God, or to somehow make amends for their sin, and Christianity teaches that God himself made the sacrifice for our sins - his own Son?
Or the fact that other religions teach that people who are very holy, religious or spiritual may be able to get close to their God, and Christianity teaches that God himself can live inside us?

No other religions make those claims.

Based on Matthew 10:34-36. How is Christ fulfilling it?

It's not a prophecy so it doesn't need to be fulfilled.

If the Holy Spirit endorses the Bible, that means, the Holy Spirit show favoritism. Like how are people from undiscovered tribes supposed to get hold of something they don't even know exist?

The Holy Spirit inspired the Bible to be written. Jesus - conceived by the Holy Spirit, and filled with the Holy Spirit - said that he is the only way to God.
If a person has the chance to hear the Gospel - not "go to church", that is a different thing - and chooses not to, or they do hear the Gospel, read the Bible and choose to reject it and God, that is serious and God will judge accordingly.
If someone has never had access to a Bible and never heard the Gospel, I do not believe that God will condemn them for something that they never knew or did not get to hear.

Yes I do.

Sorry, but I don't believe that.

If you said to me, "God has told me that the Gospel has changed, and all people have to do now to be saved is to be kind to people and animals", the first question is, "how do you know it was God who told you this?" If you want others to believe this message, you need to have some way of showing them that it was God who said this to you and is not just something that you thought of yourself. The Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, is how you do this. Does the Bible say that being a child of God is just a matter of being kind to others? No, it doesn't - so other Christians are unlikely to believe that it was God who spoke to you and told you this.

If you use the Bible as a standard then it places a lot of people at a huge disadvantage. Not everyone even knows it exists, some could lose their lives or be imprisoned for having it in their possession. It would be unfair to non-western people,

I'm not talking about people who have never heard of, read or owned a Bible; I'm talking about Christians.

If you say to a non Christian, "God spoke to me," they might not care, especially if they don't believe in him, and so they might not want to know how you know it was God. If you said that to me, though, I would want to know how you knew it was God speaking to you - unless the message was a personal one, like "apply for a job", then it would be between you and him. But if the message affected other people, obviously those people would want to be sure it was from God before they acted on it.

Christ did not endorse the scriptures. He only quoted from it but that's about it.

Jesus, the Son of God, quoted from the Scriptures, gave examples from the Scriptures - Moses, Jonah, David, etc - debated the Scriptures and explained to the two people on the way to Emmaus everything that the Scriptures said about him. You don't think that was endorsement enough?

The most important thing about missions is the relief work that goes with it. When we give back to the poor what is entitled to them. Secular humanitarian work brings the same amount of good.

Aid, relief work, working among the poor or for charity, is not the Gospel. Atheists, humanists, Muslims etc can do that - those actions do not make them Christians.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That is assuming all of our 2 billion plus Christians all over the world belong to His Church.

But I'm afraid the answer is going to be no. Christ said only few will find it.

We have no idea what few means. I think those who try to quantify it are focused on a glass half empty. What we need to do is be faithful in spreading the gospel and trust God to do what needs to be done.

 

[St_Worm2]

Christ tells us not to believe those that claim to see him such as Paul, Joseph Smith, And this guy too and probably countless others.

Hi Theologicalseeker, here is some of what the Lord says about this in Matthew 24:

"See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many." v4-5

Jesus also says: "If anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I have told you in advance. So if they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be." v23-27​

This is a general warning that over the years, many posers will come in Christ's name, claiming to be Him, but that we should not believe them because when He really does return to reign with us, EVERYBODY will know it. NO ONE will have to tell you that His "second coming" is occurring in the same way that everyone knows when a storm is approaching. IOW, it will be completely obvious when it really does happen such that no one will have to wonder that it's Jesus.

But there's nothing here that tells us the Lord cannot come and minister to someone privately. And there's certainly no warning to "not believe Him" if it really is Him!! In these cases, prior to the end of the age, He's not going before the world claiming to be the Christ, He's just ministering to an individual.

As far as Joseph Smith was concerned, he never claimed to see and talk with Jesus, rather, he claimed that he met with an angel sent to him by God called Moroni.

As for St. Paul, the Lord spoke to him personally and directly (Jesus' words being recorded for us by St. Luke, not St. Paul). This was not His second coming, rather, He came to call Paul, press him into service, and teach him everything he needed to know and do for Him. He also spoke directly with Ananias and St. Peter in Acts 9, and many others as well, all after He was risen and ascended. But He never tries to convince any of these folks that they are to go and tell everyone that He has "returned" (that's what the false Christ's and their "disciples" do).

As for the rabbi turned pastor in the WWII camp, I don't have any proof that it really happened, but if it did (and I, for one, believe it did), it certainly does not violate or contradict anything the Bible teaches us.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

--David
p.s. - whoops, sorry Nomadictheist, I started writing this several hours ago, but had to leave before I finished. When I returned, I finished it and posted it w/o checking to see what else had been posted while I was gone. Great post BTW (#224) I'm glad to see that we are in agreement about all this

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Theologicalseeker, I think it's great that you understand that and have this new insight You're also correct about Paul's writings. Some of what he says IS hard to understand, especially at first, so the need to examine what he's saying carefully is truly important. Have you read what St. Peter has to say about St. Paul and his epistles in 2 Peter 3:15-18?

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

You're welcome. 2 Peter is another Epistle that requires the same careful approach as St. Paul's Epistles do (IMHO anyway ). He says a whole bunch there with a great economy of words (in the entire Epistle, actually).

But just look at everything we can learn from just those 3 verses! Things like what Peter thinks of Paul personally (he calls him our "beloved brother"), what he thinks of his Epistles (that they are "Scripture"), and we learn that the Apostles knew what they were writing WAS God's word when they wrote it, and on and on

Definitely some very "cool" stuff there, yes