• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.

Jesus THE Creator

Discussion in 'Paterology, Christology & Pneumatology' started by Bond-servant of Christ, Oct 29, 2020.

  1. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    Is Jesus Christ THE actual Creator of the entire universe, or the secondary, by whom one greater, God the Father, created?

    There are some who use Scriptures like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, to assume that God the Father is the “source” of Creation, and that He Created through the Lord Jesus Christ. The verses read;

    John 1:3, “All things were made through him”

    Hebrews 1:1-2, “God...by his Son...through whom also he made the worlds”

    The King James Version, and some others, read “by”.

    It is the word “through”, that is used to “prove” that Jesus Christ is not the actual Creator, which is God the Father, Who Creates through Jesus Christ. This is because of the meaning of the Greek preposition, “dia” is defined by some here, as having the meaning of “through”.

    Dr George Winer, “In Jo. i.3, 15, the per of mediate agency is justified by the doctrine of the Logos, comp. Origen in loc.” (A Treatise on the Grammar of New Testament Greek, p. 474). Dr Winer was a Unitarian, so we can expect this from him.

    But, we also have the Evangelical Greek Grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, "Although dia is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of hupo. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3; Heb.1:2" ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

    Dr George E Ladd, in his, A Theology of the New Testament, says: "John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)" (p.242. 1977 edition).

    Why I say that this is no more than an assumption, is because these “authorities” have simply given the usual meaning of the preposition “dia”. However, as we shall see, that the “usual” meaning is not the only one, nor always the right one.

    Take Hebrews 2:10, where we read,

    “For it became Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

    This is speaking of God the Father, where the words, “through whom are all things”, are used for Him. This, in the Greek is the preposition “dia”, and is also in the genitive case, like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2. Hebrews 2:10 is also speaking of the Creation of the entire universe, and here, like in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, the Greek preposition “dia”, is used in exactly the same way. Are we to understand from Hebrews 2:10, that someone else was Creating through God the Father, Who is here the intermediate agent in creation, as the Greek scholars say of Jesus Christ?

    Romans 11:36 is another verse that speaks of Creation by God the father:

    “For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen”

    Here, like Hebrews 2:10, we have the Greek preposition “dia”, also in the genitive case, like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, which has been translated “through”. Which brings us to the same question, is God the Father, the intermediate agent in creation, through Whom the universe is created? If, in these two cases, Hebrews 2:10 and Romans 11:36, the Greek preposition “dia”, does not have the meaning of intermediate agent, then why is this meaning forced in places like John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ? There are some who, because of their theological bias, that somehow God the Father is the “source” of all things, that Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, though seen also as “God”, are not fully “equal” with the Father, even in the Godhead!

    We need to look more closely at this Greek preposition “dia”, and its uses, to get a better understanding. The Greek scholar, Dr A.T. Robertson, says this;

    "The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words." A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54; H E Dana and J R Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.101)

    The ancient Greek poet, Homer, used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed)

    It is very clear, that there is not a hard-fast “rule” in Greek grammar, that says the preposition “dia”, in the genitive case, is always to have the meaning of “through, intermediate”.

    There is a very interesting example of this preposition “dia”, in the genitive case, used for God the Father and Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:9 reads, “God is faithful, through (dia) whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord”. Of which Dr Samuel Green tells us, “The Father is represented as acting on behalf of his Son, to bring Christians into fellowship with Him” (Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, page 246). Here we have the Father as the intermediate agent, Who is acting for the Lord Jesus Christ. This does not in any way show any “subordination”, but rather “co-operation”, between God the Father, and God the Son, and also shows their coequality as Persons in the Godhead.

    Galatians 1:1, is another interesting verse for the use of the preposition “dia”, in the genitive case. "Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (dia) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead". The Greek for the latter part is, "alla dia Iêsou Christou kai theou patros". Notice that Jesus Christ is here mentioned first, and then the Father. Paul here uses the one Greek preposition, “dia”, to govern the whole clause. Some would have expected Paul to have written, “of (ek) God the Father, and through (dia) Jesus Christ. But this is not the case here. Paul is here saying, that his Apostleship has, not the calling of mere men, but by the Highest Authority, that of BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and God the Father. The use of the Greek preposition, “dia”, as given by Homer, “Mutual operation: with one another”, is perfectly suited here. The verse, then, has the meaning, “...jointly through Jesus Christ and God the Father...”.

    It is very clear, that the use of this Greek preposition, “dia”, is not restrictive in its use and meaning, and can and has been used for the purpose of “togetherness”, as its original meaning was. There is no reason, both theologically, and in accordance with Greek grammar, why this same use of the preposition, cannot be used in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2. The Bible is also very clear, that God the Father is not the sole Creator, nor the principal Creator, but is the joint Creator, together with the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

    John 1:1, 3, can read, “God...Created all things with Him (The Word)”

    Hebrew 1-2, “God...with Whom He also made the worlds”

    This is perfectly consistent with the Greek grammar, and the teachings of the Bible, more of which we shall see.

    In Colossians chapter 1, the Apostle Paul says this about Jesus Christ, and Creation:

    "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him" (16).

    The words, “by Him”, do not represent the Greek. Here the preposition is, “en” (in, within). In Homer it is used for, “the power is in you”, thus showing that “The Creation”, has its “source” in the Lord Jesus Christ. In Acts 17:28, this same preposition used for God, where we read, that, "in (en ) Him we live and move and have our being". That is, our very existence depends on God. John in his Gospel says the same of Jesus, “in (en ) Him was life” (1:4), that is, the “source” of all life, is from the Lord Jesus Christ!

    Paul also says in this passage in Colossians, “All things were created through Him (dia, same used in Romans 11:36 for Creation by God) and for (eis) Him". The preposition, dia, is here used as the intermediate and sustaining agent; and eis, the ultimate goal for Creation. There can be no doubt that this passage in Colossians, tells us, that, not only is Jesus Christ THE Creator of the entire universe, “all things” (ta panta), but, that the Jesus also sustains Creation, but that all of it depends on Him! As Paul goes on to say in verse 18, “That in all things He might have the preeminence”. That is, to hold the Highest place in all of Creation.

    In Revelation 3:14 John says of Jesus Christ:

    “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, ‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God

    hê archê tês ktiseôs tou theo, Not as some, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, who have corrupted this to read, “the Beginning of the creation by God”, so as to show that Jesus is the first to have been created by God, according to their demonic heresy! The Greek does not allow for this reading. The Greek lexicon by Drs W Arndt and F Gingrich, have listed the use of archê, here under, “the first cause” (p. 111), which is the “Ultimate Creator”. However, they also go on to say, “but the mng. Beginning = first created is linguistically poss.” (p.112). This remark is unhelpful as it is not contextually and Biblically possible. It would have required John to have written, “hupo tou theo (by God)”, which is what the JW's say in their version. In and of itself, the Greek archê, can be used as the “first in a series”, but here this meaning is not a possibility. The meaning here is as it is found in Greek usage, “origin, first cause”, so used from Homer onwards. Even the Unitarian Greek scholar, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of archê, used in Revelation 3:14, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which makes Jesus Christ, not the first among the created things of the universe, but The Actual Creator! Jesus Christ says of Himself, that He is “The beginning and the end” (Revelation 22:13), of which Dr Thayer says, “(he) arche kai (to) telos, of God, who by his perpetuity survives all things, i.e. eternal, Rev.i.8; xxi.6; xxii.13" (p.620). Here even a Unitarian, who denies that Jesus Christ is God, admits, that the language of the Bible says that Jesus Christ IS ETERNAL, that is uncreated, as it does for God in Revelation 1:8!

    Next, we have the very important passage from Hebrews chapter 1, where God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ, in a series of statements. In verses 10-12, we read:

    “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail"

    And, in the Greek is “kai”, which is “moreover, furthermore”, following on from what the Father has been saying, of and to Jesus Christ, from verse 5 onwards. These words used by the Father in verse 10-12, to the Lord Jesus Christ, are from the Old Testament Book of Psalm, 102:25-27, where we read:

    “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end”

    The passage in Hebrews is closer to the Hebrew text that the Greek Septuagint Version of the Old Testament, than the traditional Masoretic Text, with slight variations. In the MT, these words belong to elohim (verse 24), and this is applied to Jesus by the Father, Who addresses Him as “Lord” (Yahweh). In the Psalms passage we have the Creation of the entire universe, as THE act of elohim, as we read in Genesis 1:1. But, elohim, is a plural word, so in Hebrews, we have The First Person in the Trinity, address The Second Person, and declare, that what is true of elohim Creating the universe, is also true of Jesus Christ, as THE Creator. The words of the Father, and the application of them to Jesus Christ, cannot be in any way weakened, so as to take them as meaning that Jesus is merely the “instrument”, through Whom the Father Created. The Father Himself destroys this heresy!
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. BibleBeliever1611

    BibleBeliever1611 Member

    226
    +80
    Finland
    Christian
    Single
    I personally believe that that is a wicked heresy. God the Father created the world by Jesus just like the Bible says. I feel like it's just pride that makes people say that Jesus is God the Father or something similar.
     
  3. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    and who says that Jesus is God the Father? They are TWO DISTINCT PERSONS, and with The Holy Spirit (THIRD DISTINCT PERSON), are The Holy Trinity. 3 Persons=1God!
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

    +4,362
    New Zealand
    Christian
    Married
    Thanks for raising this very important issue.

    I really hope folks will see the critical matter of not diminishing Jesus by trying to introduce subordination into the Trinity.

    Jesus in taking human form for a season did not become less in the Godhead in the process of securing our salvation.

    He is the supreme co-ruler and creator along with the Father and the Spirit with whom He is in perfect unity...
     
  5. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

    +3,264
    Non-Denom
    Single
    Colossians 1:16
    ...all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    You exist for Jesus Christ only.

    Absolutely everything, above and below, exists purely for Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ is the Lord over heaven and earth.

    John 5:23
    So that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

    Any deviation from the identical reverence for both the Father and Son, is heresy.

    No one has ever known the Father.
    No one has heard the Father.
    No one has ever seen the Father.

    John 14:7
    If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.
     
  6. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married

    I am able to do nothing of Myself.

    “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself,

    "My food is that I should do the will of the One having sent Me,

    For I have come down from heaven, not that I should do My will, but the will of the One having sent Me.

    As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father,

    For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He gave to the Son to have life in Himself.

    No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it again. This commandment I received from My Father."


    But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father has commanded Me, thus I do.

    but the Father dwelling in Me does His works.

    For I did not speak from Myself, but the Father Himself, having sent Me, gave Me a commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.
     
  7. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    Amen! you make some very important points
     
  8. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    what is your point here?
     
  9. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    all the verses that you have quoted, are referring to the POST-Incarnation Jesus Christ, when He was for the time that He was on earth, "subordinate" to God the Father.

    Look at what Hebrews 2:7, 9 say;

    "You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor...But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone"

    And Jesus' words in Luke 24:26, "Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?”

    And, again in John 17:5, Jesus says: "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was"

    With Yourself (para seautôi). "By the side of thyself."

    "which I had" (hêi eichon), imperfect active of echô, "which I had, and still have", which is the force of the imperfect verb, as in John 1:1, "was the Word...was with God...was God". Where the Greek preposition, "en" is used, in the imperfect, which denotes an incomplete action, one that is still in its course, and is not yet brought to its intended accomplishment.

    John 17:5, shows the distinction in Persons between the Father and Son, and their complete unity and equality, the latter which Jesus "laid aside", while He walked this earth!

    "before the world was" (pro tou ton kosmon einai), "before the being as to the world"
     
  10. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married
    ,
     
  11. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married
    Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider to be equal with God something to be grasped,

    Father, those whom You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory that You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
     
  12. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    what point are you making?
     
  13. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married
    God gave Jesus His glory before the the foundation of the world, which Jesus believed was his whilst he walked in flesh in this world and on this earth, and also desired for those that where given him to see this glory as a place he was already and therefore see themselves having this glory of one as well ,... this place/glory being in mind one with our Father, bearing in mind we are all Gods Son(s) and as His Word(s) shall all be gathered back into Him .... a glory before the world was ...
     
  14. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    you fail to understand the Greek in John 17:5. Reread # 9, where it is very clear, that the Glory that Jesus speaks of, is somthing that He equally had with the Father, from, "eternity past". the Greek shows that this "Glory" is a "joint Glory", which is equally timeless for both the Father and Jesus Christ. There is no way that this Glory could have been "given" to Jesus "before the foundation of the world", because BOTH the Father are Jesus HAD this SAME Glory, at the SAME TIME!
     
  15. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married
    and yet Jesus by his testimony could do nothing of himself ....
     
  16. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    while on earth only! Read what I said on 1 Corinthians 1:9, where we see from the Greek, that God the Father works "on behalf of" God the Son. Also, as I have shown, in Hebrews 1:10-12, again the Father addresses the Son as direct Creator. In verse 8, God the Father says to Jesus Christ: "Your Throne, O God, for forever..." Can you see the EQUALITY
     
  17. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married
    i see the Father/spirit and the Son/soul as being equal only separated for this moment/time by perception ... we all having His spirit within us and we collectively are His soul who He finds His rest in, as do we find our rest in Him ...

    when Jesus said the Father is greater than I, it is because our Father came in all flesh , albeit chose Jesus to see this ....
     
  18. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    can I ask what "christian" are you? It appears from your comments, that you don't believe in the Biblical Teaching of the Holy Trinity, that of One God, Who is eternally Three equal, distinct (but not, separate) Persons?
     
  19. honey badger

    honey badger i am

    619
    +299
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Married
    I do not hold to any religion if that what you are asking ... outside of seeing everyone as His Son i have found only judgement ....
     
  20. Bond-servant of Christ

    Bond-servant of Christ Active Member

    359
    +136
    United Kingdom
    Christian
    Private
    and yet you define yourself as "christian"?
     
Loading...