Jesus seems to refer to a nonexistent "hate your enemy" verse? (Matthew 5:43)

[Emmylouwho]

LOL!!! Take an Israel tour from Sar El Tours and ask for tourguide Sonia Waters.

So, Sonia showed you an ancient scroll

 

[Dave-W]

So, Sonia showed you an ancient scroll

In a sense. It is there in the Qumran museum of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

 

[Emmylouwho]

In a sense. It is there in the Qumran museum of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Can you post something about it? You said this question has stymied scholars for centuries. You’ve seen evidence that can put this issue to rest. Can you share it?

 

[public hermit]

Can you post something about it? You said this question has stymied scholars for centuries. You’ve seen evidence that can put this issue to rest. Can you share it?

Does post #10 help?

 

[Emmylouwho]

Does post #10 help?

No.

 

[public hermit]

No.

How about this:

"The Qumran sect noted that the instructions in Lev 19:17-18 are directed toward "your brother", "the sons of your people," and "your neighbor." For them, brethren and neighbors were members of their own community. On the other hand, community members were not to correct or rebuke outsiders, including fellow Jews whom they saw as apostate. Harboring hatred in one's heart toward outsiders was permitted. Chapter 9 of the Community Rule specifies that the leader of the community "shall not rebuke the men of the Pit nor dispute with them." Later in the chapter comes the declaration, "Everlasting hatred in a spirit of secrecy for the men of perdition!"

WHO TAUGHT "HATE YOUR ENEMY'', AND WHY?

 

[Dave L]

In Matthew 5:43, Jesus appears to refer to an Old Testament text which should read something like "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy". However, there is no such verse in the Bible. What are we to make of this? Could He be referring to Psalms 139:21-22 or actions driven by hatred in the Old Testament?

More here:
Jesus seems to refer to a nonexistent "hate your enemy" verse? (Matthew 5:43) : cruciformity

“You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy;” Matthew 5:43 (AMP)

The Jews twisted scripture. They said this, scripture did not.

 

[Emmylouwho]

How about this:

"The Qumran sect noted that the instructions in Lev 19:17-18 are directed toward "your brother", "the sons of your people," and "your neighbor." For them, brethren and neighbors were members of their own community. On the other hand, community members were not to correct or rebuke outsiders, including fellow Jews whom they saw as apostate. Harboring hatred in one's heart toward outsiders was permitted. Chapter 9 of the Community Rule specifies that the leader of the community "shall not rebuke the men of the Pit nor dispute with them." Later in the chapter comes the declaration, "Everlasting hatred in a spirit of secrecy for the men of perdition!"

WHO TAUGHT "HATE YOUR ENEMY'', AND WHY?

I think you misunderstood me. My question was directed to Dave W, who has seen evidence of a scroll that Jesus referenced, and that scholars have been stymied by for centuries. When Dave was in Israel, Sonia showed him the scroll in a museum. I’d like to see it, if he would share it.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

In Matthew 5:43, Jesus appears to refer to an Old Testament text which should read something like "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy". However, there is no such verse in the Bible. What are we to make of this? Could He be referring to Psalms 139:21-22 or actions driven by hatred in the Old Testament?

More here:
Jesus seems to refer to a nonexistent "hate your enemy" verse? (Matthew 5:43) : cruciformity

 

[Mathetes66]

The answer is a simple one, that a number of people have said. If anyone would read the CONTEXT of Matthew 5:43, it is easily & plainly seen. Jesus is NOT quoting OT Scripture; He is simply repeating what those Jewish rabbi's of old TOLD the common Israelites; their interpretational tradition & commentary ABOUT the actual OT Scripture.

Their sayings were not OT Scripture nor was Jesus stating these sayings from those of old, ancient rabbinical interpretations & commentary, were Scripture but that they had replaced the actual Scripture, as traditional sayings.

Jesus corrected these traditional sayings, speaking what God had actually meant. He is the Word of God! He would know what was really meant.

Does the Old Testament teach to hate your enemies? | CARM.org

Is there a Bible contradiction in Matthew 5:43?

You can see the pattern in the context, showing you WHERE these traditional sayings came from & Jesus plain statement BEFORE He started repeating the initial phrase, 'You have heard...'

First, Jesus makes it clear that people were to teach accurately what was WRITTEN in the Law & the Prophets. Not one jot or tittle would be removed nor would anything be 'added' to what GOD SPOKE.

Matt 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. FOR TRULY I SAY TO YOU, until heaven & earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot (diacritical mark or part of a letter extension), will pass away from (disappear, be done away with) THE LAW until all is accomplished.

19THEREFORE, whoever breaks (annuls, sets aside, does away with) one of the least of these COMMANDMENTS & teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them & teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Deut 4:2 "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, so that you may keep the commandments OF THE LORD YOUR GOD which I command you.

Deut 12:32 See that you do everything I command you; do not add to it or subtract from it.

Deut 1:3 In the 40th year, on the first day of the 11th month, Moses proclaimed to the Israelites EVERYTHING that the LORD had COMMANDED HIM CONCERNING THEM.

Once Jesus establishes the Scriptural baseline of truth, He then gives a series of traditional sayings of the rabbi's or ancients of old, exposing where THIER interpretational commentary ON the Law & the prophets (OT Scripture) was wrong & then what God actually meant from what was WRITTEN.

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that it was said TO THOSE OF OLD (the ancients, ancestors, people long ago), but I say to you...'

Matt 5:27 'You have heard that is was said...but I say to you...'

Matt 5:31 'It was ALSO said...but I say to you...'

Matt 5:33 'AGAIN you have heard that it was said TO THOSE OF OLD...but I say to you...'

Matt 5:38 'You have heard that it was said...but I say to you...'

Matt 5:43 'You have heard that it was said...but I say to you...'

Jesus did very similar teachings in Matt 15:1-20 & Mark 7:1-13.

 

[Bruce Leiter]

In Matthew 5:43, Jesus appears to refer to an Old Testament text which should read something like "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy". However, there is no such verse in the Bible. What are we to make of this? Could He be referring to Psalms 139:21-22 or actions driven by hatred in the Old Testament?

More here:
Jesus seems to refer to a nonexistent "hate your enemy" verse? (Matthew 5:43) : cruciformity

There's no such verse in the Old Testament because Jesus gave his sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) to counteract the teachings of the Pharisees and teachers of the law, who wanted to separate the people from unbelievers. They hated the Samaritans, for example, and would have nothing to do with them. That's why Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan was really very scandalous.

Why do you say OT sayings were hateful? God gave the Canaanites 440 years (Genesis 15:15-16) to repent of their horrible, immoral religious practices such as sacrificing their own children to the gods.

God then gave the promised land to Israel because the people of the land had forfeited their right to the land, which God owned. The succeeding generations had to fight the Canaanites, especially the Philistines, who persisted in staying in that country. God is both a just Judge and a merciful Rescuer.

 

[Neogaia777]

It was a philosophy or teaching from the OT though, under the law, etc...

Not something the Jews just made up or got wrong (from the OT) but was actually what was taught in and by the OT, in so many words, etc...

So, what's the explanation and why the apparent change...?

God Bless!

 

[Anguspure]

Can you post a link?

The Community Rule IQS Para IX 10: He shall judge every man according to his spirit. He shall admit him in accordance with the cleanness of his hans and advance him in accordance with his understanding. And he shall love and hate likewise.

It is also interesting that the Sabbath law of the Essenes specifically forbids the rescue of a beast from a pit on the sabbath (The Damascus Document, Concerning the Sabbath to Observe it According to the its law, Para 10: No man shall assist a beast...and if it should fall into a cistern or pit, he shall not lift it out on the Sabbath), in contrast to what Yeshua said to the Pharisees: Then he asked them, "If one of you has a child or an ox that falls into a well on the Sabbath day, will you not immediately pull it out?" Luke 14

 

[mcarans]

Why do you say OT sayings were hateful? God gave the Canaanites 440 years (Genesis 15:15-16) to repent of their horrible, immoral religious practices such as sacrificing their own children to the gods.

And God then orders the slaughter of said children? Is it better for children to be slaughtered or sacrificed?

 

[Anguspure]

And God then orders the slaughter of said children? Is it better for children to be slaughtered or sacrificed?

Or starve to death because their parents have been slaughtered and there is no one to care for them?
Unfortunately the children carried the same disorder as their parents.
Besides this is a bit rich from a world that has slaughtered nearly around 50 000 000 of its children annually since the 1970's (Sorry I see you are from Denmark, one of the lowest abortion rates in Europe at perhaps 12 per 1000 women), and all of this for no other reason than the "right of a woman over her body". At least YHWH had some real reason behind what He commanded (the salvation of all of those children and the rest of us besides).

 

[Anguspure]

I think you misunderstood me. My question was directed to Dave W, who has seen evidence of a scroll that Jesus referenced, and that scholars have been stymied by for centuries. When Dave was in Israel, Sonia showed him the scroll in a museum. I’d like to see it, if he would share it.

@Dave-W shared an honest anecdote with you, from which there is probably little corroborating evidence (and given the nature of his anecdote I would be suspicious if I saw any). There is no need to become the inquisitor.
Be like a Berean my sister. Search these things for yourself. I have a complete Dead Sea Scrolls (Geza Vermes translation) sitting beside me at the moment. It is not all that difficult to obtain.
The truth is that all mankind has taught love your friends and hate your enemies. The only person who has revealed anything different to us is Yeshua ben YHWH.

 

[mcarans]

Or starve to death because their parents have been slaughtered and there is no one to care for them?
Unfortunately the children carried the same disorder as their parents.
Besides this is a bit rich from a world that has slaughtered nearly around 50 000 000 of its children annually since the 1970's (Sorry I see you are from Denmark, one of the lowest abortion rates in Europe at perhaps 12 per 1000 women), and all of this for no other reason than the "right of a woman over her body". At least YHWH had some real reason behind what He commanded (the salvation of all of those children and the rest of us besides).

Out of interest, how many abortions were there before the 1970s? How does the rate compare now to pre-1970s?

Denmark has one of the lowest rates while allowing abortions. The low rate is because of things like free universal healthcare, heavily subsidised nurseries and kindergartens, generous maternity and paternity leave with a societal expectation that they be fully used (eg. I took 8 months paternity leave just under half of which was fully paid), single mothers being accepted in society rather than stigmatised, easy access to contraceptives etc. I'm sure other countries could reduce their rates significantly if they copied Denmark but people would have to accept paying higher taxes. Sadly many people who label themselves pro-life are not willing to cough up a bit of cash to save a few lives.

 

[Emmylouwho]

@Dave-W shared an honest anecdote with you, from which there is probably little corroborating evidence (and given the nature of his anecdote I would be suspicious if I saw any). There is no need to become the inquisitor.
Be like a Berean my sister. Search these things for yourself. I have a complete Dead Sea Scrolls (Geza Vermes translation) sitting beside me at the moment. It is not all that difficult to obtain.
The truth is that all mankind has taught love your friends and hate your enemies. The only person who has revealed anything different to us is Yeshua ben YHWH.

Dave W made a somewhat grandiose claim and I asked him to substantiate it. What’s wrong with that?

 

[Anguspure]

Dave W made a somewhat grandiose claim and I asked him to substantiate it. What’s wrong with that?

Sorry, but I don't see what was grandiose about it. It was a simple observation that given the nature human culture, particularly when it comes to offshoot cults, is more likely than not to be correct.

 

[Soyeong]

In Matthew 5:43, Jesus appears to refer to an Old Testament text which should read something like "You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy". However, there is no such verse in the Bible. What are we to make of this? Could He be referring to Psalms 139:21-22 or actions driven by hatred in the Old Testament?

More here:
Jesus seems to refer to a nonexistent "hate your enemy" verse? (Matthew 5:43) : cruciformity

Whenever Jesus was directly quoting from the OT, he proceeded it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people of his day had heard being said, "he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from the Law, so Jesus was not doing that in Matthew 5, but rather everything that he taught in that chapter was in accordance with what was written. So the point that he was making in Matthew 5:43 was that while the OT does instruct us to love our neighbor (Leviticus 19:18), it does not instruct us to hate our enemies. On the contrary, verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22 are all in accordance with loving our enemy.