Jesus' Return = Wrath

[Nadiine]

I have a question - I hear so much how God loves everybody (not disputing that... altho I did read a verse or 2 that He hated the wicked?)

But if Christ is coming back to earth in such fury, taking vengeance on an unrepenting world, why do people think that He's up there seeing all the evil and corruption going on, while smiling and loving on everyone?

I tend to think God is up there smoking hot in anger right now --- I know we can't know for sure, but...

Am I off base here? Or is His anger only towards 'reprobates'?

 

[Secundulus]

But if Christ is coming back to earth in such fury, taking vengeance on an unrepenting world, why do people think that He's up there seeing all the evil and corruption going on, while smiling and loving on everyone?

Many Christians have essentially adopted Marcionism and reject that Jesus has anything to do with the God revealled in the OT.

Many more Christians have adopted gnosticism and reject that God can be known and that he reveals hiself through our feelings rather than through the physical revelation given in the scriptures. This leads to the notion that if something feels good, then it must be from God.

Most Christians have an incomplete understanding of the phrase "God's Love" which can only be understood properly in the context of a covenant.

Christianity today consist of at least two completely different philosophical approaches to understanding God. In my opinion, it is a stretch even to call these two approaches the same religion.

 

[GQ Chris]

I just got through arguing with a pacifist here



Some people just want God to be how they want and not what Scripture says. When I mentioned Jesus coming back as a Warrior with armed Angels, they just choose to ignore it.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I don't believe it really matters.

The world ending is a reality for each of us as we all die and face the Lord.

 

[higgs2]

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Rochir]

I have a question - I hear so much how God loves everybody (not disputing that... altho I did read a verse or 2 that He hated the wicked?)

But if Christ is coming back to earth in such fury, taking vengeance on an unrepenting world, why do people think that He's up there seeing all the evil and corruption going on, while smiling and loving on everyone?

I tend to think God is up there smoking hot in anger right now --- I know we can't know for sure, but...

Am I off base here? Or is His anger only towards 'reprobates'?

Hey, he'll loves you as all as me! Rest assured!

 

[Wade Smith]

I just got through arguing with a pacifist here



Some people just want God to be how they want and not what Scripture says. When I mentioned Jesus coming back as a Warrior with armed Angels, they just choose to ignore it.

I'm going to read through that thread momentarily.

The "Pacifist Jesus" and the "anything Goes Jesus" are among the most disturbing false doctrines/false gospels I see today. It really is gnosticism and subjective morality.


Personally, I don't know of any pacifist Jesus. The Jesus of the Bible was no pacifist.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Psalm 119:155
Salvation is far from the wicked: for they seek not thy statutes.

Proverbs 15:29
The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Would seem to suggest God doesn't even hear the prayers of the unrepentant sinner.


Here is what the "Apostle of Love" wrote.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

People who reject God's Word have a special place in his heart...

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


Eph. 5:3But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Paul liked that phrase so much, he used it in another letter!

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

 

[GreenMunchkin]

It's just not something I think about. I see God as loving before wrathful. In fact, He's wrathful *because* He loves us so much. When we sin, and stumble, we don't hurt Him, we hurt ourselves, and that's what He hates.

So, absolutely, God is angry at what He sees, and He's right to be because we've messed this up. But I'd rather try my best and know He'll forgive me if I repent, and worship Him in adoration and amazement than be petrified of Him and become legalistic. Am not saying anyone is - am saying I could become that way if I was so afraid of Him.

 

[Zecryphon]

It's just not something I think about. I see God as loving before wrathful. In fact, He's wrathful *because* He loves us so much. When we sin, and stumble, we don't hurt Him, we hurt ourselves, and that's what He hates.

So, absolutely, God is angry at what He sees, and He's right to be because we've messed this up. But I'd rather try my best and know He'll forgive me if I repent, and worship Him in adoration and amazement than be petrified of Him and become legalistic. Am not saying anyone is - am saying I could become that way if I was so afraid of Him.

If God isn't hurt by sin, why must He make certain that we are not sinful when we enter His realm in eternity?

 

[Carolyn H]

I just got through arguing with a pacifist here



Some people just want God to be how they want and not what Scripture says. When I mentioned Jesus coming back as a Warrior with armed Angels, they just choose to ignore it.

I couldn't get past this:

If there is no faith in guns then why have them for self-defense? Yes, it was absolutely wrong for the people to use guns to create the US. Just because the US was successfully created by immigrants why is it assumed it was an act approved by God?

Also, I am not trying to change your mind. All I am doing is showing if people want to have guns then fine, that is their Right, but don't try to use Jesus, the inventor of Christian Pacifism, to underwrite the justification for having the guns for self-defense.

NADIINE:

I just believe we are under grace and not wrath.

 

[Zecryphon]

If there is no faith in guns then why have them for self-defense? Yes, it was absolutely wrong for the people to use guns to create the US. Just because the US was successfully created by immigrants why is it assumed it was an act approved by God?

Also, I am not trying to change your mind. All I am doing is showing if people want to have guns then fine, that is their Right, but don't try to use Jesus, the inventor of Christian Pacifism, to underwrite the justification for having the guns for self-defense.

NADIINE:

I just believe we are under grace and not wrath.

Jesus told His disciples to sell their cloak and buy a sword.

Luk 22:36 He said to them, "But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

That's quite a statement for a pacifist to make. Jesus Himself told the disciples that He did not come to bring peace, but a sword and division.

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Mat 10:36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

That's another real interesting statement for a pacifist to make. On the Day of Judgment Jesus is going to be the one to throw the anti-Christ and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire.

Rev 19:11 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

Rev 19:12 His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself.

Rev 19:13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.

Rev 19:14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

Rev 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

Rev 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, "Come, gather for the great supper of God,

Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great."

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Not exactly the actions of a pacifist. So where are you getting this idea that Jesus is a pacifist?

 

[MrJim]

Mt 5:43 –Mt 5:48 KJV
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[MrJim]

Rom 12:17 –Rom 12:21 KJV
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[MrJim]

Even as a mennonite I and many in the church did not accept the "pacifist" moniker, preferring the more historical "nonresistant". At a glance they may appear to be the same thing, but then at a glance a baptist and the mormon appear to be the same thing

The nonresistant is all about submission. This is the example Christ gave when he was arrested, tried, and executed. The pacifist is all about power. Pacifists believe in nonviolent resistance to authority. Therein is the difference. One example I like to give is the draft: Draft a nonresistant and he will show up before the board and humbly submit to them for whatever punishment to be rendered for refusing to be drafted~even if it mean prison or death. The pacifist may choose to resist the draft by going to another country, mounting a protest, pursuing legal options, etc. There are many now within the mennonite community that have traded in their nonresistant stance for a pacifist one, seeing the "power" that comes with it, but it is not honest to the historical understanding of the anabaptists.

That Jesus returns and reigns as a warrior in no way detracts from the above in that we are not called to be God. That is easy to see in the temple clearing recordings in Scripture~~Jesus didn't arm the disciples with whips to clear them; He did it alone. The Revelation passages show God executing the vengeance rather than us~~we're called to be the suffering servant rather than the gladiator/warrior ~ ok, not as "cool", yet considering Christ's ministry on earth is to be ours then it's easy to see that for this time this is the work we're to do.

Yeah, as a mennonite I'd butt heads faster with liberal pacifists than militant baptists..go figure

 

[Nadiine]

If there is no faith in guns then why have them for self-defense? Yes, it was absolutely wrong for the people to use guns to create the US. Just because the US was successfully created by immigrants why is it assumed it was an act approved by God?

Also, I am not trying to change your mind. All I am doing is showing if people want to have guns then fine, that is their Right, but don't try to use Jesus, the inventor of Christian Pacifism, to underwrite the justification for having the guns for self-defense.

NADIINE:

I just believe we are under grace and not wrath.

hello =)
If you're speaking about Christians being under grace and not wrath, I very much agree with you.

But I do disagree that God is a 'pacifist' due to Revelation's teaching of Christ returning in severe wrath on the world. He will take His vengeance out on all who choose evil over righteousness....
He was telling us as His people not to physically attack or force people to accept Him.
Like Islam promotes forceful conversion - infidels should be put to death.
I believe that is what Christ was teaching - not to attack enemies but not that physical violence cannot ever be used even in righteous situations like defense of self or others.

but I guess I was more wondering if people thought Jesus would be angry at what He's seeing on this earth right now with all the abortion, greed, violence, abuse, etc.

I just can't picture Him passive about evil going on down here - esp. when He tells us to hate what is evil.
I don't for 1 minute think that we should go out attacking God's enemies physically - and I don't think that's what anyone else is advocating either (not that we can't protect ourselves with weapons)

 

[Blank123]

I have a question - I hear so much how God loves everybody (not disputing that... altho I did read a verse or 2 that He hated the wicked?)

But if Christ is coming back to earth in such fury, taking vengeance on an unrepenting world, why do people think that He's up there seeing all the evil and corruption going on, while smiling and loving on everyone?

I tend to think God is up there smoking hot in anger right now --- I know we can't know for sure, but...

Am I off base here? Or is His anger only towards 'reprobates'?

God's character is perfectly balanced. He does love everyone and wishes to see everyone saved (2 Peter 3:9) I mean that *is* why He sent His Son so that we could be forgiven and enter into a right relationship with Him


but at the same time He has a perfect sense of justice. He cannot stand sin and cannot stand the evil that we allow to go on here, that does make Him angry. Thats actually going back to the core of the gospel though. When we were lost and dying in our sins God's anger and wrath burned against us because we had rebelled against Him and were choosing to live for self, for the devil, what-have-you but when He drew us to Himself and gave us ears to hear and eyes to see and understand the Gospel and when we became covered in the blood of the Lamb His anger and wrath no longer burned against us because He was seeing us through Christ's righteousness. We were made perfect in His sight through Christ's Perfection.

The dying world doesn't have the protection of the Lamb's blood. And while He does long to see them saved their evil is an abomination in His eyes which is why Revelation and Zechariah show Him coming back to wage war with the nations and as a Judge.

i hope that all made sense because i think i even confused myself

 

[Apollo Celestio]

I take him as what he is. A king who has a will, and acts within his character to achieve that will. Sin is not to be a part of it. He must destroy it, and there are probably better ways to do this. I wouldn't say he is a pacifist, or one without hate.

 

[Simon_Templar]

I have a question - I hear so much how God loves everybody (not disputing that... altho I did read a verse or 2 that He hated the wicked?)

But if Christ is coming back to earth in such fury, taking vengeance on an unrepenting world, why do people think that He's up there seeing all the evil and corruption going on, while smiling and loving on everyone?

I tend to think God is up there smoking hot in anger right now --- I know we can't know for sure, but...

Am I off base here? Or is His anger only towards 'reprobates'?

I don't know if you've ever had kids or not... I never have... but I come from a large family. I've got about 30 neices and nephews, and 7 siblings.

People always look at issues like this in unrealistic terms. How can God be loving if he has wrath? How can God be wrathful, if he's loving?


Well God is not like man.. but man is in some ways like God. We can easily see if we simply look at the world around us that it is entirely possible to love and at the same time be angry, and have wrath.

My family is very loving, but many times I've seen parents who love their kids, also very very angry at the same kids.

Now, its easy to think, sure.. we might get angry.. but no one would kill their own kid in wrath etc, and still be loving...

But that also is not considering things like.. what if one of your kids was really truly evil? What if one of your kids was killing your other kids? raping your other kids?


There is no doubt from scripture that the wicked are storing up wrath for themselves by their wickedness. No question that when the end comes the wicked will suffer the results of God's fury at their depravity and their sin.
But the scripture also says God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but would rather that they come to repentance.

Love is not cancelled out by wrath, neither is wrath cancelled out by love. In fact, in my opinion, they are sides of the same coin.

 

[GQ Chris]

If there is no faith in guns then why have them for self-defense? Yes, it was absolutely wrong for the people to use guns to create the US. Just because the US was successfully created by immigrants why is it assumed it was an act approved by God?

Also, I am not trying to change your mind. All I am doing is showing if people want to have guns then fine, that is their Right, but don't try to use Jesus, the inventor of Christian Pacifism, to underwrite the justification for having the guns for self-defense.

The Coming of Christ (Revelation Chapter 19) NASB


11And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."


-------------



Scripture says that God is not a man that he should lie. And I think that people who want to make God into what their mind wants Him to be discredits Almighty God.

If Jesus was a pacifist mankind has no Hope.

 

[SolomonVII]

But there is no lambs lying around with lions yet, even after his first coming.

We, as Christians and post-Christians both, have learned the lesson of mercy quite well, and the value of forgiveness and love for sinners like us. We have learned that, as sinners, forgiving others of their sins enables ours to be forgiven too, and we are all very cool with that, for sure.

But justice is still as lacking as it ever was. Human nature is still as evil as it ever was. Lions still find lambs tasty and eat them whenever they can.

I think that Jesus' message will be a little more judgemental the next time around, and will make it clear that therre are consequences to be paid for sin.

God's punishment is a terrible thought to consider.

But after Pearl Harbour, after Auschwitz, after Stalinist and Maoist purges, after the Khmer Rouge, and the Hutus and the Molochian jihadists turning their children into bombs, after the ongoing destruction of the world's unborn, after all this:

Who among us does not thirst for justice now too? Even for sinners, withl bellies fully sated by tasty lamb, the idea of a world like ours carrying on into perpetuity is enough to make the stomach go sour and churn.

We all yearn for justice too.