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Jesus - Related questions

.Mikha'el.

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warghaha said:
of course I won't. But if the purpose of my life is that, I shouldn't complain. Maybe fear with all the pain, but shouldn't to some extent to question God's decision. After all, that is one of the purpose of Crist. His apostles also been mathyed. Do they questioned God's decision?:confused:

I do not see how God's decision is being questioned. Jesus certainly indicates that he would rather not have to die, but that if it is truly the Will of God, that it should be done.

If it were up to Him, Jesus would not have died as He did, but there was total submission to the will of God. That is not questioning. As far as the disciples are concerned, that is different, because they did not take, up themselves, the sins of the world.
 
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DeaconDean

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and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.


One possible explaination for this passage might be that as the "spotless Lamb" Jesus had to take the sin of the whole world upon himself. (John 1:29) Can you imagine the Lord himself taking upon himself the nastiness, the darkness, of sin upon one who knew no sin? This may or may not be one explaination for this passage of scripture. Another one is commonly held that when Jesus said that, He was asking that if there was any other way to do this, then Lord let it be, but as we know He said nevertheless not my will be done but yours Lord. Thank God for that! When Jesus cried out on the cross, it was because God had to turn His back on His Son. Sin deserves punishment, and by taking our sin upon Himself, Jesus bore the full brunt of God's wrath because of sin. You see, God literally had to forsake His Son, so to speek. And early on His ministry, Jesus himself said that He had come to give His life as a ransom for many. (Matt. 12:40; 17:9, 22-23; 20:28; John 10:11,15; 12:27,32-33) ;)
 
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warghaha

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£amb said:
Yes He knew it. It had been prophesied in the OT about His birth and His death. It was something that Jesus knew He had to do. I truly feel that Jesus showed his human side when He asked God to take this burden off of Him, and find another way. If God had wanted to, He could of spared His only Son. Maybe Jesus knew that God had the power to do so, but it was not what was planned to be done. Jesus stuck with the will of His Father, no matter what he went through. It was more than anybody could of beared.
That's why I'm confused. He knew it. But he's like kind of hasitate to do it. He ask the Father to "remove the cup" and question "why has you forsaken/abandon me". He loves us all but in some ways he complaining(can't find a better word, my English sucks) about that in front of his apostles and upon the crowd. This will make the people wonder, whether he is sincere enough or not.
 
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warghaha

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Defiance said:
The Jew's denied Jesus as the Messiah, not His existence.
Sorry about my words. That's what I meant actually.
Of course Jesus didn't want to suffer and die on the cross.
Didn't he was sent for the sacrifice? Or the earlier plan of the sacrifice was not on the cross? If not on the cross, why it still happen? If on the cross, why he didn't want to?
Also, forsaken = abandoned. In the TEV, the same verse reads, "My God, my God, why did you abandon me?"
Oh, ok. Just out of curiosity, why it's translated differently. But still, he'd said something like that to the Father
As for Jesus praying in Gethsemane, sure He wasn't too enthused about dying on the cross and enduring the pain and ridicule (can you blame Him?) so naturally, He asked if there was any other way that we could be saved without Him suffering (Matthew 26:39).
So the plan to die on the cross is not the earlier plan? Or he's trying to find another solution.This will shift the God's plan if the plan is on the cross.:scratch:
But, read the last part of verse 39 where Jesus says "Yet not what I want, but what you want." In other words, He was saying to God that He wanted to do His Father's will other His own.
He wanted to do that, but asking for easier plan?:scratch:
In Matthew 36:41, Jesus defines the problem that He feels: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
His flesh is weak, of course. But to show his strenght in spirit, he shouldn't complained( I think). This will make the crowd feel like he's not sincere enough.

Define complain: When he's on the cross, he cried out loud "Father, why has you forsaken me" instead of cried for his pains(like Argh, or calling the Father's name or something like that).
When he's with his apostles, he prayed in front of his apostles to remove the burden.:scratch:
All of that is IMHO. :) Hope you can make some sense out of it.
Thanks for sharing your opinions:)
 
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warghaha

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Petrarch said:
I do not see how God's decision is being questioned. Jesus certainly indicates that he would rather not have to die, but that if it is truly the Will of God, that it should be done.
Sorry about my confused words. What I meant was, he's like questioning the God's plan when he said what he'd said on the cross. He also asked the Father to "remove the cup" while he'd knew it that's one of his purpose on this earth. Didn't it sounds like questioning the plan?:scratch:

As an example:
If your teacher give you a tough homework and you ask him if he could give you an easier one, didn't it sounds like questioning/complaining?

If someone had asked you to help him to do a tough job, you help him but in the same time you keep saying, why you have do this in front of him, didn't it sounds like you questioning/complaining to him?

It sounds like you didn't sincere enough or willingly to do the tasks. If you know what I mean.;)
As far as the disciples are concerned, that is different, because they did not take, up themselves, the sins of the world.
OK. So the apostles are the diffrent issues. Thanks.:wave:
 
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warghaha

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I'm sorry to make you confused with my OP. :sorry:

Maybe I sounded like an ignorant person. But this question I had asked for long enough. I asked to the priests but it can't satisfied me. They also said, just has a faith on this. Maybe I'm a stubborn man, I can't just put my faith just like that and this question it's always haunted me.:help:

Please read my post...maybe from #11 to #16 first...:pray:
 
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I think the key is to remember that Jesus was 100% man and 100% God when He was on earth. These things he said show his human side. Even Jesus said no one can take his life, he lays it down willingly. But in a moment of humanity, he asked is Father if there was any other way to accomplish the salvation of mankind without them being separated.

Personally, it makes me feel humble and in awe of Jesus that he went through such pain and heartache for me. I think you might need to look at it differently. Try to see that he wasn't complaining, just asking for another way. When He cried out on the cross, he was feeling the weight of our sins and the wrath of God.

I probably haven't added much, sorry. :sorry:
 
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warghaha

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WashedClean said:
I think you might need to look at it differently.
Thank you Washedclean.

I'd tried before but it keeps firing back at me. Let see about the same thing in Luke 22:42

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
I tried to think that he was not trying to escape from the sacrifice as he knew that already. But he still asked the Father to "remove the cup" by the Father's will. He should had prepared for that long enough, I think.

And the verse after that: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

An angle had been sent to strenghten a God?:confused: God also need an angle? I know he is 100% man...but he is also 100% God, right...his God's abilities are far beyond an angle can do, IMHO.

These had really bothered me...am I had been tempted by Satan to questioning these?...I don't know, but I think I need some help....:help:
 
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WashedClean

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warghaha said:
Thank you Washedclean.

I'd tried before but it keeps firing back at me. Let see about the same thing in Luke 22:42

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
I tried to think that he was not trying to escape from the sacrifice as he knew that already. But he still asked the Father to "remove the cup" by the Father's will. He should had prepared for that long enough, I think.

And the verse after that: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

An angle had been sent to strenghten a God?:confused: God also need an angle? I know he is 100% man...but he is also 100% God, right...his God's abilities are far beyond an angle can do, IMHO.

These had really bothered me...am I had been tempted by Satan to questioning these?...I don't know, but I think I need some help....:help:

Again, the angel was comforting him because he was feeling very human at the time. Imagine something so horrible is about to happen to you and you know it. You also have to remember Jesus had never experienced any separation from the Father and this caused him much emotional pain and distress, knowing this was coming. In fact, the Bible says he sweat drops of blood, which shows the intensity of his feelings.

I don't know if this is helping you. :sigh:
 
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warghaha

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I think I'm not gonna ask/argue further on this. Otherwise it'll be recognized as debate and it's against the board's rules. I don't know when will I get a satisfied answer on this. Or maybe my mind had been contaminated with my searching.:sigh:

Anyway, thanks WashedClean and all.:wave:

**thinking out loud** I hope they all are not frustrated with me...like most people I'd asked about this

 
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The Virginian

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warghaha said:
Thank you Washedclean.

I'd tried before but it keeps firing back at me. Let see about the same thing in Luke 22:42

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
I tried to think that he was not trying to escape from the sacrifice as he knew that already. But he still asked the Father to "remove the cup" by the Father's will. He should had prepared for that long enough, I think.

And the verse after that: And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

An angle had been sent to strenghten a God?:confused: God also need an angle? I know he is 100% man...but he is also 100% God, right...his God's abilities are far beyond an angle can do, IMHO.

These had really bothered me...am I had been tempted by Satan to questioning these?...I don't know, but I think I need some help....:help:

:wave: You have posted quotes from various New Testament passages of Holy Scripture, which pose problems for your belief. There is passage which I think, will make sense of it all; one which seems to have been overlooked. The prophet Isaiah in answering the people's question of why is it that we've observed all the regulations about fasting and prayer, and God has not answered, says this; "Your sin has made a separation between you and your God, so that He does not hear." In other words, God turns His back on sin, so that it is never before His face. When Adam and Eve sinned by disobedience, god still knew they existed, but they were expelled from His presence, and from that of the Tree of Life.
The Genesis record tell us "...let us make man in our image...", signifying that there was a determinate, and unified, council of the Godhead before the creation of man. Fast forwarding to the Gospel of John, we find that Godhead identified more definitively. Whereas Genesis says "...and the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the deep...", (that's two members) the Apostle John says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God..."(that's the third member), and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us...." (and here we see Jesus, the only Incarnate, begotten son of God). I mention all of this because it seems that in your questionings :scratch: , you appear to have missed this one, salient fact,mirrowed by God, Adam, and Eve in the Garden prior to the Fall: There's an essential and unbroken union, shared by the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Remember now: The God who always has been, and will be One, has always hated sin. And although the "...Word became flesh..." ("because the children share in flesh and blood..."), that essential unity remained unbroken.
Now, while the abilities of God are beyond those of men angels, those of men are not. Remember, that after being tempted by Satan in the wilderness, angels came and strengthened who, none but Jesus, the fleshly Son of God. He was tempted in all things as we are, but without sin, means that He thirsted, hungered, and became weary; why else would He ask for water, lay his head on a pillow, or roast fish on a fire, Hmmm.
Jesus the son of God, supposedly the son of Joseph while in the flesh, demonstrated what is capable for both you, and I. And that is: It is possible for the flesh to so willingly co-operate with the will of God, so as to enjoy communion with God. And this so much so that when God, who hates sin, turns His back on the sinful sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, we hear "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me..."

I:crosseo: I've answered some of your questions.
 
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The Virginian

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The Virginian said:
:wave: And that is: It is possible for the flesh to so willingly co-operate with the will of God, so as to enjoy communion with God. And this so much so that when God, who hates sin, turns His back on the sinful sacrifice for the redemption of mankind, we hear "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me..."

I:crosseo: I've answered some of your questions.

By failing to make a paragraph break after "...communion with God..." it seems that I"m insinuating that when we co-operate with the will of God we humans become a sacrifice for sins, something which we know is not possible. Forgive me!
 
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Rolf Ernst

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As a man, Jesus grew in stature, wisdom and knowledge. As a man, He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. Throughout His earthly existence, every day was a test. He had to progress in the knowledge of God and in matters pertaining to His work to the point that the Father was pleased with His progress. As He prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane, His advance in knowledge was still underway. Sure it is that as they walked together to Jerusalem, Jesus told His disciples that He would be crucified, and would be raised, but I think that the Father had chosen to not reveal to His Son how terrible the ordeal He would go through would be. However, as Jesus knelt in the Garden, the time came that Jesus had to be more informed about what would be required of Him. What was it the Father told His Son that was so much more than Jesus had before realized that He "began to be sore amazed."? What new revelation came to Him, the grief of which caused Him to sweat so profusely that His sweat was like great drops of blood? I believe that here we are upon ground so holy that it is not a matter we should be prying into with vain curiosity. Remember that when Jesus was ascending the mount of transfiguration, He allowed only His closest disciples to accompany Him and they are allowed to see His transfiguration; burt now, as they are in the Garden, what takes place is solely between the Father and the Son. The three were there, but Jesus related nothing to them about what had troubled Him so. The disciples noticed the evidences of great struggle in His face, but they dared not ask Him to explain. Remember that in His humanity, Jesus was still learning. No doubt the Father did not want to burden Him any earlier with all that was going to be involved until it was necessary to do so in order that the Lord Jesus might learn of and obediently accept the cup.
It seems that the Father kept from Jesus the horrifying detail of the total separation that would exist between Himself and His Son during the three hours of darkness. I believe that the thing for us to realize is that as our federal head, Jesus, in His humanity, suffered silently through those three hours of darkness; suffered faithfully, raising no complaint; surely the greatest possible demonstration of obedience under the greatest possible stress.

Remember when Jesus said, "My meat is to do the will of Him that sent me and to finish His work." ? And in John 8:28,29 Jesus speaks of His obedience, making the point that "The Father has not left me alone" because "I do always those things which please Him." The way Jesus placed "the Father has not left me alone" in the midst of testifying of His faithfulness shows that to Jesus, the continual fellowship He had with the Father was by far, above all other things, the delight of His heart, a joy that urged Him forward in His work; driving Him to stedfast obedience. Now, as Jesus is lifted up between heaven and earth, He knows that He is continuing to do always those things which please the Father, and His greatest reward for doing so, is still that the Father has not left HIm alone. Then suddenly, the darkness of that separation! Yet, though that loss of fellowship is the most stressful event of His life, and though it has come at the very peak of His suffering, the time when He was most in need of the Father's comfort, He, as an obedient Son faithful in all things, suffered through those three dark hours alone, maintaining His silence, offering not one complaint. Having suffered through those hours obediently, with the light now upon His face, and the fellowship restored, who would wonder that He would want to be informed about what had just taken place??
 
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Greyshade89

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warghaha said:
Sorry to post such a sensitive issue. Can I? Just delete this thread if you feel it's not suitable...:pray:

Jews denied Jesus. Muslims said he just a prophet. Christians accepted him as a God. Now, for my question:

Muslims said he was not crucified on the cross. Christians claimed he was. Whatever the statements, the man on the cross didn't willing to be crucified:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?-Mark 15:34.

It seems that the man on the cross didn't pleased nor considered it just for him. So, it seems Jesus had not accepted this kind of plan of salvation, or the man on the cross wasn't him.

Doesn't the Father had foretold he will bear the sorrow for humankind in Old Testament? But if yes, why Jesus still moarned about that?:confused:

Well what I think on that is this. Christ became flesh and however He didnt comitt any sins. He was tempted the Bible says by satan. In the garden while He was praying for this cup to pass Him, he was UPSET LOL. He prayed until He sweat blood. That was Him being tempted though. He knew it was something He had to do though. On the cross. He was in MUCH pain. So yeah, I can see why He cried that out. Like I said though. He owned flesh lol..but He didnt walk in it. Although He was tempted by satan. Just my opinion though.:)
 
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rztaxi

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Are all of you so lost not to understand these simple
variances and contradictions in all the holy books of humanity. Do none of you understand,you see all of the prophets of God up intill now were sent to divide and
cause strife ,to make as much noise as possible ,you see.
Now that my father has everyones attention . I tell you this, all men of earth, the day is near.Jesus spoke the word of God .Gods words in the flesh . you see the son of God needs no name ,for with a name you have a face
the face of a man I ASK YOU THIS MY FRIEND. Was it john that came before him to lay the path as scripture says.They preached at the same time.You see Jesus was sent to divide. He said so himself I ask you this
who makes more noise ,the one that cuts the path
or the one who follows behind him. I am I, the son of who am . That is why my brother called out. it is he that came before me .My time is near. but the glory will always be his my beloved fathers

GOD BLESS
 
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PETE_

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This is the hardest of all the hard sayings. It is the last articulate utterance of the crucified Jesus reported by Mark and Matthew; soon afterward, they say, with a loud cry (the content of which is not specified) he breathed his last.
P. W. Schmiedel adduced this utterance as one of the few “absolutely credible” texts which might be used as “foundation pillars for a truly scientific life of Jesus,” on the ground that it could not be a product of the worship of Jesus in the church. No one would have invented it; it was an uncompromising datum of tradition which an Evangelist had to either reproduce as it stood or else pass over without mention.
It would be wise not to make the utterance a basis for reconstructing the inner feelings which Jesus experienced on the cross. The question “Why?” was asked, but remained unanswered. There are some theologians and psychologists, nevertheless, who have undertaken to supply the answer which the record does not give. Their example is not to be followed. This at least must be said: if it is a hard saying for the reader of the Gospels, it was hardest of all for our Lord himself. The assurances on which men and women of God in Old Testament times rested in faith were not for him. “Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivers him out of them all,” said a psalmist (Ps 34:19 RSV), but for Jesus no deliverance appeared.
It seems certain that the words are quoted from the beginning of Psalm 22. Arguments to the contrary are not convincing. The words are not quoted from the Hebrew text, but from an Aramaic paraphrase. (For the Aramaic form Eloi, “my God,” in Mark, the Hebrew form Eli appears in Matthew. Any attempt to determine the precise pronunciation would have to reckon with the fact that some bystanders thought that Jesus was calling for Elijah to come and help him.) Psalm 22, while it begins with a cry of utter desolation, is really an expression of faith and thanksgiving; the help from God, so long awaited and even despaired of, comes at last. So it has sometimes been thought that, while Jesus is recorded as uttering only the opening cry of desolation, in fact he recited the whole psalm (although inaudibly) as an expression of faith.
This cannot be proved, but there is one New Testament writer who seems to have thought so—the author of the letter to the Hebrews. This writer more than once quotes other passages from Psalm 22 apart from the opening cry and ascribes them to Jesus. In particular, he says that Jesus “offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him” (Heb 5:7–9).
In these words the writer to the Hebrews expounds, in terms of sufferings which Jesus endured, the acknowledgment of Psalm 22:24: God “has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.” But when he says that Jesus’ prayer “to the one who could save him from death” was answered, he does not mean that Jesus was delivered from dying; he means that, having died, he was “brought back from the dead” to live henceforth by “the power of an indestructible life” (Heb 13:20; 7:16).
The same writer presents Jesus in his death as being a willing and acceptable sacrifice to God. That martyrs in Israel should offer their lives to expiate the sins of others was not unprecedented. Instead of having his heart filled with bitter resentment against those who were treating him so abominably, Jesus in dying offered his life to God as an atonement for their sins, and for the sins of the world. Had he not said on one occasion that “the Son of Man [came] … to give his life as a ransom for many” (Mk 10:45)? But now he did so the more effectively by entering really into the desolation of that God-forsakenness which is the lot of sinners—by being “made … to be sin for us,” as Paul puts it (2 Cor 5:21). “In His death everything was made His that sin had made ours—everything in sin except its sinfulness.”20
Jesus “learned obedience from what he suffered,” as the writer to the Hebrews says, in the sense that by his suffering he learned the cost of his wholehearted obedience to his Father. His acceptance of the cross crowned his obedience, and he was never more pleasing to the Father than in this act of total devotion; yet that does not diminish the reality of his experience of being God-forsaken. But this reality has made him the more effective as the deliverer and supporter of his people. He is no visitant from another world, avoiding too much involvement with this world of ours; he has totally involved himself in the human lot. There is no depth of dereliction known to human beings which he has not plumbed; by this means he has been “made perfect”—that is to say, completely qualified to be his people’s sympathizing helper in their most extreme need. If they feel like crying to God, “Why hast thou forsaken me?” they can reflect that that is what he cried. When they call out of the depths to God, he who called out of the depths on Good Friday knows what it feels like. But there is this difference: he is with them now to strengthen them—no one was there to strengthen him.​
http://www.christianforums.com/t2183308&page=4#_ftn3http://www.christianforums.com/t2183308&page=4#_ftnref3Kaiser, W. C. 1997, c1996. Hard sayings of the Bible.
 
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calidog

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It seems that the man on the cross didn't pleased nor considered it just for him. So, it seems Jesus had not accepted this kind of plan of salvation, or the man on the cross wasn't him.
Jesus did not resist:


Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Mat 26:55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.

Mat 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
Mat 27:12 And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing.
Mat 27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee?
Mat 27:14 And he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Mar 14:59 But neither so did their witness agree together.
Mar 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus, saying, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
Mar 14:61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Luk 23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.
Luk 23:9 Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing.
 
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