Jesus - Related questions

[warghaha]

Sorry to post such a sensitive issue. Can I? Just delete this thread if you feel it's not suitable...

Jews denied Jesus. Muslims said he just a prophet. Christians accepted him as a God. Now, for my question:

Muslims said he was not crucified on the cross. Christians claimed he was. Whatever the statements, the man on the cross didn't willing to be crucified:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?-Mark 15:34.

It seems that the man on the cross didn't pleased nor considered it just for him. So, it seems Jesus had not accepted this kind of plan of salvation, or the man on the cross wasn't him.

Doesn't the Father had foretold he will bear the sorrow for humankind in Old Testament? But if yes, why Jesus still moarned about that?

 

[Bassman]

In the passage you were referring to, Jesus was quoting Psalms 22. Thereby confirming the fact that he is, indeed, the fulfillment of the LAw and the Prophets.

 

[warghaha]

In the passage you were referring to, Jesus was quoting Psalms 22. Thereby confirming the fact that he is, indeed, the fulfillment of the LAw and the Prophets.

Thanks.

But he isn't wan't to be crucified before. Like in the garden of Gethemane, he did pray to release him from that.

Mark 14:32-36
32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

(the underlines are mine)and he repeat this pray for 3 times.

 

[Asar'el]

Thanks.

But he isn't wan't to be crucified before. Like in the garden of Gethemane, he did pray to release him from that.

Mark 14:32-36
32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

(the underlines are mine)and he repeat this pray for 3 times.

This is to show how difficult that which Christ went through was. Many people tend to make light of it, usually in the form of 'What is the big deal, if He was God it would not be too much trouble for Him to suffer for a few hours...'

You have to understand Jesus Christ was a man, too - yet a man with right understanding of what was about to pass. And I say no man that understand can think lightly of what Christ endured!

 

[dodad91]

Indeed, at that monemt when Jesus prayed this prayer, there was such an INTENSE struggle between the earthly man Jesus, and His Will to do the Father's Will, and of course, He submitted to His Father's Will because the struggle that Jesus endured could not be felt by any man. We can only imagine what He went through, but to feel what He felt is much more like a man trying to give birth to a child.

 

[MinDach]

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?-Mark 15:34.

Jesus was still a man and God, when he was on this earth, he had to be a man just like Adam. He could not cheat, he had a test to pass, to be sinless. When he was on the cross, at that moment God had to leave him, for Jesus had to bare all the sins of the past & future on his back, or should I say on the cross. (God can not look upon sin), so that is why Jesus said what he did. God did leave him at that moment. When God looks at us he does not see our sin, he see Jesus. This is the only way back to God we have, this is the plan God laid down from the very moment Adam sinned.

 

[repentant]

Here is an Orthodox view of why He said what He said....

"Jesus repeats a passage from Psalm 22, which corresponds exactly to the crucifixion. Taken by itself, without any consideration of what follows, His cry of My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? could be interpretd as an expression of despair. Since He appropriated our nature, Jesus experiences true seperation from God in His humanity, knowing suffering and distress, and yet He does not despair. He speaks these words in the name of humanity, to put an end to the alienation of man from God. For as God He is never forsaken by the Father. With this cry humanity is accepted and saved."

 

[Sketcher]

It seems that the man on the cross didn't pleased nor considered it just for him. So, it seems Jesus had not accepted this kind of plan of salvation, or the man on the cross wasn't him.

Jesus accepted the plan, submitted to it, and carried it out. But He knew that suffering was part of the deal and His cry on the cross shows how bad it was. Since Jesus still had His power He could have released Himself and done TERRIBLE things to those who crucified Him. But He didn't. He swallowed the most bitter of all the pills.

 

[£amb]

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.


Jesus was asking God to pass the cup, but reread the last bit of the verse. "...not what I will, but what thou wilt." He was doing God's will not what He wanted to do. He wasn't unaware of what He was going through, but He still accepted what He was about to do. Can you imagine if Jesus said "alright Father, I've had enough, so forget the plan and let's just move on".

 

[warghaha]

Thanks for all replies.

Indeed, at that monemt when Jesus prayed this prayer, there was such an INTENSE struggle between the earthly man Jesus, and His Will to do the Father's Will,

Yes, the intense struggle. Didn't he knew that already, he will be sacrificed for all human sins. While he loved all people and want to realease all human sins, why did he prayed to the Father to "remove the cup"?

 

[warghaha]

When he was on the cross, at that moment God had to leave him,

Didn't he knew that also? So why he still moaning.

If you truely loved someone, while you trying to help them, you'll not moaning in front of them about your suffering. This will give the wrong impression(like you didn't sincere enough to help them).

Just my statement and not my argument. I just need some more clear explanation

 

[warghaha]

And as we know, sin seperates us from God. For that moment, Jesus experienced what we experience: seperation from God.

This something have to do with the "original sin". I also have some question regarding this one. But think it's not in suitable thread. I'll ask this in another thread.

And to the extreme He experienced it, because He had ALL our sins on Him.. can you even imagine that?

I also think that this is a noble action for only noble person can and will do that.

If I hit you in the head with a ping-pong ball you might say "huh?" but if I beam you in the head with a brick, assuming you don't fall unconscious, you're probably gonna yell at me "OW!!! WHY DID YOU DO THAT!!" along with a string of curses, rofl.

lol...If the pain can heal all your desease(if you had any), I'll happily to do that. But if I complaining about the pains in front of you (or even try to suggest you to beam the brick only onto my fingernail), maybe you'll stay away from me...

 

[Bassman]

Crucifixion is the most painful, humiliating form of execution ever devised by man. So it's only logical that Jesus' human side was experiencing the intense pain shooting up His spine. And don't forget, the spikes were in His feet, and his wrists.

 

[warghaha]

[and for repentant and twistedsketch, I think I had adressed my curiosity with the above posts]

36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.


Jesus was asking God to pass the cup, but reread the last bit of the verse. "...not what I will, but what thou wilt." He was doing God's will not what He wanted to do. He wasn't unaware of what He was going through, but He still accepted what He was about to do. Can you imagine if Jesus said "alright Father, I've had enough, so forget the plan and let's just move on".

Can I reread the verse like this: "O Father, I know you can make all things possible...please remove my pain...not of what I will, but with your own will..."

(excuse me if I'm wrong)it seems like, he want the burden off his shoulder by the will of the Father.

 

[warghaha]

Crucifixion is the most painful, humiliating form of execution ever devised by man. So it's only logical that Jesus' human side was experiencing the intense pain shooting up His spine. And don't forget, the spikes were in His feet, and his wrists.

Yes, I can understand that(I wish I could). But he moaned to some extent by saying: "O Father, why has you forsaken me"... If he said something like: "O Father, O Father" or "Argh"( I hope I didn't offend anyone with this), then we absolutely clear that he had felt the tremendous pain but he still sincere to to that

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Thanks.

But he isn't wan't to be crucified before. Like in the garden of Gethemane, he did pray to release him from that.

Mark 14:32-36
32 And they came to a place which was named Gethsemane: and he saith to his disciples, Sit ye here, while I shall pray.
33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

(the underlines are mine)and he repeat this pray for 3 times.

Would you want to be stripped nude, with nails in your wrists and feet, hung on a cross. And then to be killed that way, and your death to be viewed by hundreds, even thousands of people, and then have to bear the sins of all humans who have lived and who will ever live? I think not.

Jesus knew that he was the key to human salvation, but it would certainly be a responsibility and a physical torture that no human being would want to endure.

 

[warghaha]

Would you want to be stripped nude, with nails in your wrists and feet, hung on a cross. And then to be killed that way, and your death to be viewed by hundreds, even thousands of people, and then have to bear the sins of all humans who have lived and who will ever live? I think not.

of course I won't. But if the purpose of my life is that, I shouldn't complain. Maybe fear with all the pain, but shouldn't to some extent to question God's decision. After all, that is one of the purpose of Crist. His apostles also been mathyed. Do they questioned God's decision?

 

[£amb]

Thanks for all replies.

Yes, the intense struggle. Didn't he knew that already, he will be sacrificed for all human sins. While he loved all people and want to realease all human sins, why did he prayed to the Father to "remove the cup"?

Yes He knew it. It had been prophesied in the OT about His birth and His death. It was something that Jesus knew He had to do. I truly feel that Jesus showed his human side when He asked God to take this burden off of Him, and find another way. If God had wanted to, He could of spared His only Son. Maybe Jesus knew that God had the power to do so, but it was not what was planned to be done. Jesus stuck with the will of His Father, no matter what he went through. It was more than anybody could of beared.

 

[Defiance]

Hey warghaha,

Jews denied Jesus. Muslims said he just a prophet. Christians accepted him as a God.

The Jew's denied Jesus as the Messiah, not His existence.

Muslims said he was not crucified on the cross. Christians claimed he was. Whatever the statements, the man on the cross didn't willing to be crucified:

And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?-Mark 15:34.

It seems that the man on the cross didn't pleased nor considered it just for him. So, it seems Jesus had not accepted this kind of plan of salvation, or the man on the cross wasn't him.

Of course Jesus didn't want to suffer and die on the cross (one of the most painful and slow ways of execution ever invented. The Romans were masters of pain. The only reason why Jesus endured it all was His love for you and for me. It's like what He told Peter just before He was arrested, He could have called on God and legions of angels would have come and rescued Him. It has been said, therefore, that it wasn't the nails that held Him on the cross, it was His love for you and for me.

I believe that Blue Pulse's reply to your question regarding Mark 15:34 was very good. Also, forsaken = abandoned. In the TEV, the same verse reads, "My God, my God, why did you abandon me?"

As for Jesus praying in Gethsemane, sure He wasn't too enthused about dying on the cross and enduring the pain and ridicule (can you blame Him?) so naturally, He asked if there was any other way that we could be saved without Him suffering (Matthew 26:39). But, read the last part of verse 39 where Jesus says "Yet not what I want, but what you want." In other words, He was saying to God that He wanted to do His Father's will other His own.

Doesn't the Father had foretold he will bear the sorrow for humankind in Old Testament? But if yes, why Jesus still moarned about that?

In Matthew 36:41, Jesus defines the problem that He feels: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."

All of that is IMHO. Hope you can make some sense out of it.

 

[woobadooba]

I heard it explained like this once:

At the moment before Christ's death, He took on the sins of the *entire world*. And as we know, sin seperates us from God. For that moment, Jesus experienced what we experience: seperation from God. Jesus never sinned, He never had to experience that until this moment when He had the sin of the world on His shoulders. And to the extreme He experienced it, because He had ALL our sins on Him.. can you even imagine that? All of our sins. I can't imagine it nor do I particularly want to.

He cries out "Why have you forsaken me?" because, as the above poster said, God *had* left Him, there was a disconnection there.

If I hit you in the head with a ping-pong ball you might say "huh?" but if I beam you in the head with a brick, assuming you don't fall unconscious, you're probably gonna yell at me "OW!!! WHY DID YOU DO THAT!!" along with a string of curses, rofl. I don't think any of us can possibly imagine truthfully the actual process of taking on the entire sins of the world.

~ ~

I like your explanation.