Jesus Paid Our Debt?

holyrokker

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I've often heard people claim that Jesus paid our debt, but I haven't been able to find any reference to it in the Bible.

Where did this idea come from?

What debt did we owe? Who was our creditor?


The closest analogy I can find is in Matthew 18:23-27
“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go."

But even here, no debt was paid. The debt was forgiven.

Supposed you owe Jim $10,000,000 but can't even begin to pay even the interest on the loan.

Then imagine that Jack pays Jim the entire balance (plus interest).

Did Jim forgive you? No. The bill has been paid in full.Jim has his money back. It has cost him nothing.

But suppose (as in Matthew 18) Jim says "Forget about it" and cancels the debt. Now you've been forgiven.

A debt that has been paid is not forgiveness.
A debt that has been forgiven is left unpaid.

So, I ask again. What was our debt? Who was our creditor?
 

ashout

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your looking at it strangly. I'm not sure I can follow your thinking, but here goes:

debt is something you owe, when you sin, you are considered to owe God. he will collect on this debt with torture in the pit of Hell. Jesus Christ, however, came along and died on a cross, thereby "purchasing" our debt. he purchased it with HIS pain, basically our sin was going to have to result in pain. no matter what, there was NO way around it, so when Jesus was in pain, he was paying for our debt. he bought our pain with his pain, so now, we don't owe anything else! the pain has been taken care of!
 
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holyrokker

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But what do we "owe" God?

And if Jesus "paid" our debt, whom did He pay?

And if He "purchased" our debt, how can we say that we've been forgiven?

A debt that is paid is not forgiven.
A debt that is forgiven isn't paid.
 
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patience7

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I've often heard people claim that Jesus paid our debt, but I haven't been able to find any reference to it in the Bible.

Where did this idea come from?

What debt did we owe? Who was our creditor?


The closest analogy I can find is in Matthew 18:23-27
“Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand bags of gold was brought to him. Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
“At this the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’ The servant’s master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go."

But even here, no debt was paid. The debt was forgiven.

Supposed you owe Jim $10,000,000 but can't even begin to pay even the interest on the loan.

Then imagine that Jack pays Jim the entire balance (plus interest).

Did Jim forgive you? No. The bill has been paid in full.Jim has his money back. It has cost him nothing.

But suppose (as in Matthew 18) Jim says "Forget about it" and cancels the debt. Now you've been forgiven.

A debt that has been paid is not forgiveness.
A debt that has been forgiven is left unpaid.

So, I ask again. What was our debt? Who was our creditor?

Jesus paid the ransom, he redeemed our lives and brought us back to God by his death.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not be to be ministered unto but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
 
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cantonboy

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1. Man as in mankind owed GOD ( Jehovah ) a debt through sin of ADAM.

2. I owed GOD ( the Father ) a debt because I was born into mankind.

3. Mankind cannot pay the DEBT, so I could not pay the DEBT.

4. The SINless man can pay the DEBT but there is no SINless man.

5. GOD is SPIRIT and HE is HOLY............hmmn........

6. GOD decided to impregnate MARY ( fertilised the egg by HOLY GHOST )

7. GOD has a SON ( in flesh and with Blood ) who has a HOLY SPIRIT or Spirit of HOLINESS.

8. JESUS CHRIST of NAZARETH was that SON of GOD and SON of MAN.

9. Then JESUS had the requirements of a sacrifice to appease a HOLY JEHOVAH.

10 JESUS laid down HIS LIFE for Mankind ( paid the DEBT ) on the CROSS.

11. THE DEBT was Paid in FULL - THE GRACE of GOD !!!

12. I believe this GOOD NEWS ( Gospel ) therefore my DEBT to GOD is Forgiven.

Halleleujah JESUS paid my DEBT and HE has FORGIVEN my debts to HIM.

Sounds too good to be true? YES IT IS TRUE ! It was made that simple for man

but man chose to complicate matters with religion.

For those who do not believe then the DEBT is still there !

GUESS : From the time JESUS was crucified till GOD resurrected HIM, the three days
WHERE did HE go ?
 
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holyrokker

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Where does the BIBLE say that we owed God some "debt" and that Jesus paid our "debt"?

If the wages of sin is death, how death a "debt"? Death is what we've "earned".

If Jesus died in our place, He didn't pay our debt, He took what was rightfully ours.

A debt is something we have that rightfully belongs to someone else.
 
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holyrokker

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well, your thinking is different from God's, becuase God thinks that a debt that is paid for IS forgiven. that's what he means by that.
Really? Where did God teach you such a concept? I've been looking throughout the Bible, and there's nothing there about God thinking a debt that is paid is also forgiven.

The two ideas are contrary to each other.
 
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miamited

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Hi HR,

Well let's see. There may be some confusion here. We don't owe God a debt. The debt is owed to Satan. When Adam and Eve listened to Satan and in so many words said, "Ok, I'm going to believe you on this one." They forsook God and turned to Satan. God had told them that they would surely die. Not that He was going to murder them, but that Satan would. You see, only God has the power of life! When we, for whatever reason or whatever time, turn our lives over to the instruction and leading of Satan, then we become subject to death because Satan cannot sustain our life. Satan is the one that we owe a debt to and he will not release us from that debt. Jesus said, and here's where you can find the answer to your question in the Scriptures:
"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto , but to minister , and to give his life a ransom for many."

What is a ransom? A ransom is paid to one who has kidnapped someone. In effect, we have been kidnapped from God's kingdom and held captive by Satan. Because we now belong to Satan we will die. Remember, Satan cannot give life to anyone. However, Jesus came and paid the ransom to Satan and again as the Scriptures declare:
"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full."

You see, Jesus tells us that it is the thief who comes to kill and destroy, not God. But he explains that his(Jesus') purpose in coming was that we may have life to the full. Some understand this 'life to the full' as being a more abundant life of peace and security, but it is really more than that. Full life is what God first gave us. Eternal llife. The thief, however, has come and taken us out of God's kingdom which is the only place where eternal life can be had. Hence we find God's account for those who desire to come back to His kingdom:
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life."

Only God has the power and authority to let us drink from that spring which gives life. When we turn our lives over to Satan, then Satan takes us away from that life giving spring and we begin our descent into death. We begin to get old and suffer from diseases and plagues and all kinds of sufferings. But Jesus came to free us from that debt that we now owe Satan. He bought us with his very own blood back from the pit of hell and now stand free of the debt that is owed to Satan and can return back to the spring of eternal life on that day of God's judgment. When He will look upon every person who has ever lived and see who's name is written in the Lamb's Book of Life and return them to His kingdom where they will then be free to drink of the spring of life. Jesus said:
"I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness."

You see, according to these words of Jesus the default position for mankind is darkness. We all live in the darkness that is life with Satan. The Scriptures even tell us that he is the ruler of this world. But Jesus came that anyone of us who freely chooses to believe can be removed from that kingdom of darkness to that kingdom of light, because Jesus has paid the ransom that Satan requires for our freedom from his kingdom.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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miamited

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Hi HR,

Yes, the Scriptures record that Jesus said, "I give my life as a ransom for many."

No, we're not talking physical kidnapping here. We're talking spiritual kidnapping and yes, Satan did it right in front of God. God was there when Satan tempted Eve. God was there when Satan tempted His Son. God is always there, but the issue of free choice is that we are allowed to know various options and make a choice. Unfortunately, we don't always know all the ramifications of our choices.

Just as when two teenagers get together and have sexual relations. They know that they have the choice to have sexual relations or not. They opt for the immediate pleasure giving little concern to the possible outcomes.

A group gets together and throws a party and there is alcohol available and several of the guests drink because they know that it will provide immediate pleasure, but the not a one of them says to themself, "Well, if I drink I may inhibit my reaction time as I drive home in a 2500lb. car at 60 miles an hour and someone may get hurt or killed."

Yes, in both situations it's a gamble. Maybe the two will have sexual relations and there will not be any pregnancy; maybe the guests will all get home that night, but...

God's rules for living are that we all do what is right for everyone else in all situations. When we choose not to do that, then we have fallen for the lie that Satan has spread. "Oh, it's OK. Everything will be just fine."

God says, "Nope, I have laid before you life and death. Choose life, that you may live." However, if we choose death, then that is what we will get. We essentially look to God and say, "Look God, I'm going to go this way. I believe it will be the best way for me to live and hey, all my friends are over there." God says, "Ok"

But He really loves you and He knows how gullible and frail you are and how susceptable to believing lies you are and He said to His Son, "Go down and give them the testimony about me and then pay the debt to Satan that any who have seen the error of their ways may come back."

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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holyrokker

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No, we're not talking physical kidnapping here. We're talking spiritual kidnapping and yes, Satan did it right in front of God. God was there when Satan tempted Eve. God was there when Satan tempted His Son. God is always there, but the issue of free choice is that we are allowed to know various options and make a choice. Unfortunately, we don't always know all the ramifications of our choices.
But this isn't a "kidnapping". In a kidnapping there is a victim, and crime is committed against the victim's will.

To say that we are "kidnapped" by Satan would mean that we are victims; that satan snatched us away against our wills because we are helpless.
 
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Svt4Him

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Seems you are playing semantical gymnastics. Was it a kidnapping? No. The wages of sin is death. Jesus received that payment. Call it what you will, Jesus took our sins. Now you can argue that Jesus became our sin, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you call it, those with Jesus have life.

In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul has made the argument that everybody, both Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the atonement or payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice, foretold in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament, that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s perfect life, His death on the cross, and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a Holy God. The wonderful truth of the Gospel message is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).

Now how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
 
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holyrokker

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Seems you are playing semantical gymnastics. Was it a kidnapping? No. The wages of sin is death. Jesus received that payment. Call it what you will, Jesus took our sins. Now you can argue that Jesus became our sin, but at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what you call it, those with Jesus have life.

In the first three chapters of Romans, Paul has made the argument that everybody, both Jew and Gentile alike, is under the condemnation of God and deserving of His wrath (Romans 1:18). Everyone has sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). All of us deserve His wrath and punishment. God in His infinite grace and mercy has provided a way that His wrath can be appeased and we can be reconciled to Him. That way is through the sacrificial death of His Son, Jesus Christ, as the atonement or payment for sins. It is through faith in Jesus Christ as God’s perfect sacrifice, foretold in the Old Testament and fulfilled in the New Testament, that we can be reconciled to God. It is only because of Christ’s perfect life, His death on the cross, and His resurrection on the third day that a lost sinner deserving of hell can be reconciled to a Holy God. The wonderful truth of the Gospel message is that Christians are saved from God’s wrath and reconciled to God not because “we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins” (1 John 4:10).

Now how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
"Semantics" is a very important concept because words have specific meanings in specific contexts.

Equating "atonement" with "payment for sins" is a misapplication of the word "atonement". An atonement cannot be a payment. It's a substitution.

Christ's sacrifice takes the place of our death, if we believe. It doesn't meet the exact demands of our full penalty.

It provides a way for God to forgive our sins while still upholding His justice. (Romans 3:22-26)
 
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Hi HR,

You responded: But this isn't a "kidnapping". In a kidnapping there is a victim, and crime is committed against the victim's will.

Oh there has been a spiritual 'kidnapping' and yes, you went willingly, because of the gain you thought you would get. Often times when a child is kidnapped it doesn't begin violently. A stranger may come up and entice the child in some way to go with him. The child willingly goes, but then when he wants to go home, he isn't allowed. Yes, there is a victim, the problem is that while we are under the enticement that Satan has held out as our reason that we should go with him, we don't yet realize that w are a victim.

In this kidnapping you may not realize that you have been spiritually kidnapped for quite a while.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
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Svt4Him

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"Semantics" is a very important concept because words have specific meanings in specific contexts.

Equating "atonement" with "payment for sins" is a misapplication of the word "atonement". An atonement cannot be a payment. It's a substitution.

Christ's sacrifice takes the place of our death, if we believe. It doesn't meet the exact demands of our full penalty.

It provides a way for God to forgive our sins while still upholding His justice. (Romans 3:22-26)

Sure if you limit the meaning, which again is an exercise in semantic. But if you wish to define it in your limited terms, then you are correct. But since your interpretation rules are defined by you, it doesn't negate what anyone else says. And yes, Christ's death does meet the excact demands, as God laid out those demands when He allowed us a sacrificial system. The wages of sin is death, and Christ died.

atonement (əˈtəʊnmənt) — n 1. satisfaction, reparation, or expiation given for an injury or wrong

rep·a·ra·tion

   /ˌrɛp
thinsp.png
əˈreɪ
thinsp.png
ʃən
/ Show Spelled[rep-uh-rey-shuh
thinsp.png
n] Show IPA
–noun 1. the making of amends for wrong or injury done: reparation for an injustice.

2. Usually, reparations. compensation in money, material, labor, etc., payable by a defeated country to another country or to an individual for loss suffered during or as a result of war.

3. restoration to good condition.

4. repair1 ( def. 7 ) .
 
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holyrokker

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atonement (əˈtəʊnmənt) — n 1. satisfaction, reparation, or expiation given for an injury or wrong

rep·a·ra·tion

   /ˌrɛp
thinsp.png
əˈreɪ
thinsp.png
ʃən
/ Show Spelled[rep-uh-rey-shuh
thinsp.png
n] Show IPA
–noun 1. the making of amends for wrong or injury done: reparation for an injustice.

2. Usually, reparations. compensation in money, material, labor, etc., payable by a defeated country to another country or to an individual for loss suffered during or as a result of war.

3. restoration to good condition.

4. repair1 ( def. 7 ) .
An atonement is offered to the person who was wronged, by the offender.

God allowed the Israelites to bring an atoning sacrifice to "make amends" for their sin.

Reparations can only make up part of the injury, cost, or suffering inflicted on a person or people.

An atonement is a substitute for reparations.

Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. His sacrifice is our way of "making amends" for our sin. He is a substitute for any atonement that we could bring to God.

It cannot, therefore, be a full "payment" of some "debt" that we owe to God.

The debt we owe God is our eternal gratitude and love for the gift of His atonement on our behalf.

This is the debt that we will never be able to begin to repay.
 
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