Jesus of History and Myth

[cvanwey]

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

still think you're misrepresenting the statistics

we have ZERO other surviving records written by eyewitnesses to these alleged events of about April 30 AD or so

it's NOT the case, that every known Roman historian was in attendance at Christ's trial, recording everything diligently, and THEY make no mention of the ghostly apparitions of the resurrected Saints (or whatever Matthew might mean)

No, it's not that other surviving accounts CONTRADICT the NT...

it is the case that only the NT records anything whatsoever at all of those events

whatever Pilate wrote, did not survive until present... we cannot ASSUME that his account of events to emperor Tiberias (say) made no mention of the resurrected saints... it is NOT the case that we have any OTHER contradictory accounts

the only people whose account of the events survives until present are the NT Christians, and to some extent the non-Christian Jews whose memory of events is recorded in the Talmud

You make it sound as if we have OTHER witnesses who contradict and discredit the NT -- but, other than perhaps the Talmud, we have no other direct eyewitness accounts of April 30 AD

we have one witness, the NT, and it says all that stuff happened

We are again completely speaking past each other.

The only mention of the dead walking the streets is Matthew 27:52-53. Or how about 1 Corinthians 15:4-6? It would not matter if it was asserted that 100 other people wrote about it, and they were all burned in flames, or that no one ever wrote about it at all, my points are...

1. Seems extremely convenient that the ONLY writings of such asserted/stated large event(s) and supernatural event(s), stated to be seen by many, is the ones from the Gospel/NT itself - (a bias source to say the very least).

2. Appears clumsy to allow for all other records to be destroyed. Why would God not assure that other records survived. Why not preserve them for verification. God can do anything right? To only allow for the NT docs to survive brings up two logical conclusions, (again using Occam's Razor).

a. The writers for the NT were the only ones interjecting such tales of supernatural phenomenon.
b. All other writings of supernatural phenomenon were all conveniently destroyed, except the NT docs.

 

[cvanwey]

MacArthur Study Bible
27:52 bodies of the saints…were raised.
Matthew alone mentions this miracle. Nothing more is said about these people, which would be unlikely if they remained on earth for long. Evidently, these people were given glorified bodies; they appeared “to many” (v. 53), enough to establish the reality of the miracle; and then they no doubt ascended to glory—a kind of foretaste of 1 Thess. 4:16.​

Note that the next few verses IDENTIFY some of the witnesses, including:

• Roman centurion & soldiers
• Mary Magdalene
• Mary mother of Jesus
• mother of Zebedee's sons
• other women believers

Again, these are accounts from the book of claims itself. It's no different than reading the Book of Mormon.

If anyone is to claim validity of the above attestation, then the Mormon account for the golden tablets must be well established as fact, as sworn and signed testimony exists for witnessing the golden plates, as Joseph Smith, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith were all signed in real time. By any standard of evidence, this account possesses much more corroborated eyewitness testimony than any competing New Testament claimed eyewitness account. And yet, the Christian will reject the claimed eyewitness tenets of Mormonism.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Yes, it is. Modus tollens - Wikipedia

Basically, if an event P must have consequences Q. But, we don't see Q, then P never happened.

If there is an elephant in my room I'd see it. I don't see an elephant. Ergo, no elephant.

If 100s of dead people got out of their graves and wandered about, surely more than the story teller would have recorded it. (And what of re-death and re-burial, feeding, getting jobs, etc.) But more than the story teller did not record it. Ergo, it didn't happen

An almost complete and total lack of surviving historical documents from first century Judaeo

ie a virtually complete. Absence Of evidence. One way or another.

Is not Evidence of absence.

It's not that nobody else wrote about it. It's that nobody elses writings from that place in time have survived until present. So we have no idea what people wrote or didn't write. About those events.

We don't have pilots account to Emperor Tiberius. We don't have priest Caiaphas's diary. We don't have secular sources, saying it didn't happen.

We have one witness the New Testament, the Gospel of Matthew and it says it did happen.

If it did happen. Then, what other surviving. First century historical. Documents should have recorded according to you.

Your logic is fine in principle but doesn't apply here in any practical way. To my knowledge, we have no other surviving first century. Accounts. From Judea. In or about 30 AD. What other eyewitness account? omits or even denies. This particular. Miracle. event.

 

[inquiring mind]

The miracle is NOT established. You have a story teller saying that lots of people saw it.

1. Seems extremely convenient that the ONLY writings of such asserted/stated large event(s) and supernatural event(s), stated to be seen by many, is the ones from the Gospel/NT itself - (a bias source to say the very least).

2. Appears clumsy to allow for all other records to be destroyed. Why would God not assure that other records survived. Why not preserve them for verification. God can do anything right? To only allow for the NT docs to survive brings up two logical conclusions, (again using Occam's Razor).

a. The writers for the NT were the only ones interjecting such tales of supernatural phenomenon.
b. All other writings of supernatural phenomenon were all conveniently destroyed, except the NT docs.

If anyone is to claim validity of the above attestation, then the Mormon account for the golden tablets must be well established as fact, as sworn and signed testimony exists for witnessing the golden plates, as Joseph Smith, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith were all signed in real time. By any standard of evidence, this account possesses much more corroborated eyewitness testimony than any competing New Testament claimed eyewitness account. And yet, the Christian will reject the claimed eyewitness tenets of Mormonism.

There may not be other supporting documents, but there are none contradicting it either. Of all the educated people, religious hierarchies, and government officials that despised Jesus and anything to do with Him, not one credible account discrediting this or any other gospel account has survived... don’t you find that the least bit odd, even with wide-spread destruction of opposition (or supporting) documents? And the NT Gospel doesn’t limit its witnesses to a religious hierarchy of people; it included the public streets for many to see, yet not one account disputes it.

 

[Erik Nelson]

b. All other writings of supernatural phenomenon were all conveniently destroyed, except the NT docs.

Well, yes, basically that's what happened right.

What other eyewitness account? Do we have to these events of approximately April 30? AD. Besides the Gospel of Matthew.

The only non eye witness account we have is Josephus. And he being a non Christian Jew would also be a very biased account. Not likely to include. Any overt Vindications. Off. Jesus' Messiah status. Even if they did hypothetically happen.

For the record, what if the ghostly apparitions were only. Psychically perceived by. Christian believers. And the Roman soldiers of course. Sort of a private miracle to bolster their faith.

Nevertheless. Multiple Roman soldiers are alleged to have witnessed the miracle. Surely they informed their commander who informed Pilate. Pilate may have written something. if, we had Pilate's report. And his account made no mention of the miracle. Or outright denied and rejected the miracle. Then you would, in fact have a contradictory witness to the New Testament. But once again that's not what we have. We only have one eye, witness to this event. Namely, Matthew and he says it happened. "One in favor".

 

[Erik Nelson]

Again, these are accounts from the book of claims itself. It's no different than reading the Book of Mormon.

If anyone is to claim validity of the above attestation, then the Mormon account for the golden tablets must be well established as fact, as sworn and signed testimony exists for witnessing the golden plates, as Joseph Smith, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Hyrum Smith, and Samuel H. Smith were all signed in real time. By any standard of evidence, this account possesses much more corroborated eyewitness testimony than any competing New Testament claimed eyewitness account. And yet, the Christian will reject the claimed eyewitness tenets of Mormonism.

Similar but not the same.
Direct versus indirect.
If I accept. Matthews claims of having seen X?
Then maybe I should accept. All of those men's claims. That, they saw Golden plates.
assuming, of course that I trust them. As much as I Trust Matthew.

Hypothetically. In theory, There is a difference between seeing Golden plates, and those Golden plates actually having the Book of Mormon inscribed upon them. In and archaic language. That only Joseph Smith was miraculously able to decipher. That is yet one other. One more. Leap of logical faith. Unless you are saying that all of those gentlemen, swore on their honor that they saw Golden plates AND. Deciphered the Golden plates into the Book of Mormon.

Whereas Matthew had nothing, he had to decipher. He witnessed. His equivalent of Golden plates, he witnessed his Golden Miracle. Which required no further deciphering or any other effort on his part?

 

[Steve Petersen]

There may not be other supporting documents, but there are none contradicting it either. Of all the educated people, religious hierarchies, and government officials that despised Jesus and anything to do with Him, not one credible account discrediting this or any other gospel account has survived... don’t you find that the least bit odd, even with wide-spread destruction of opposition (or supporting) documents? And the NT Gospel doesn’t limit its witnesses to a religious hierarchy of people; it included the public streets for many to see, yet not one account disputes it.

How could there be contradictory evidence for things that didn't happen? How do you know Zeus didn't actually imprison the Titans? Do you have contradictory evidence?

 

[inquiring mind]

How could there be contradictory evidence for things that didn't happen? How do you know Zeus didn't actually imprison the Titans? Do you have contradictory evidence?

It’s well-known by everyone that there are those who scoff and present conspiracy accounts claiming we didn’t land on the moon... so, my point is maybe no one disputed the gospel accounts or even bothered with supporting documents because they knew the stories were accurate and true.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The miracle is NOT established. You have a story teller saying that lots of people saw it.

Your understating his case. He named half a dozen specific people who allegedly also witnessed the event. People who were evidently alive when he first wrote. People. Who? Could and would have vouched for his claims?

He mentioned Mary the mother of the Messiah. Are you saying he put his made up words in his messiah's mothers mouth?

 

[Erik Nelson]

How could there be contradictory evidence for things that didn't happen? How do you know Zeus didn't actually imprison the Titans? Do you have contradictory evidence?

Apples and oranges. Zeus was never a historically attested figure.

Christ is attested by Josephus Tacitus, Suetonius as well as the Christian scriptures themselves.

More accurate comparison would be. The New Testament. to the Iliad and The Odyssey. And the Aeneid.

Heinrich Schliemann. Found Troy. 150 years ago. vindicating Homer's. Geographically precise descriptions. There very likely were. Greek and Trojan Warriors by the names of Achilles and Priam and Hector and Aeneas and Ajax and Agamemnon. And a queen, named Helen. And the king of Ithaca named Odysseus, who was blown way off course on his attempts to return home and was shipped wrecked numerous places across. The western Mediterranean for a decade before he finally made it back home.

That was 3200. Years ago. (And no one claims Homer was divinely inspired.)

So we ought to treat the New Testament as 60% more recent, and accurate still.

 

[Steve Petersen]

my point is maybe no one disputed the gospel accounts or even bothered with supporting documents because they knew the stories were accurate and true.

Accurate and true accounts of dead people rising from the grave? This is remarkable enough to require a little more than 'well, no one ever contradicted it.'

 

[Tinker Grey]

Your understating his case. He named half a dozen specific people who allegedly also witnessed the event. People who were evidently alive when he first wrote. People. Who? Could and would have vouched for his claims?

He mentioned Mary the mother of the Messiah. Are you saying he put his made up words in his messiah's mothers mouth?

If he had quoted Mary at all, then yes he put words in Mary's mouth. But since he doesn't say that Mary said anything I don't know what to tell you.

And as far as I can tell, the text really only indicates that they were at the crucifixion. Until you have them in their own words, you got nothing.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Accurate and true accounts of dead people rising from the grave? This is remarkable enough to require a little more than 'well, no one ever contradicted it.'

ALL CREATION ! Testifies to the Truth of the DEITY, YAHWEH !

And thus also His Word.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Another thing that supports the idea that the stories about Jesus are at least partly made up: How do we know what he said and did when he was supposedly alone? The Temptation in the Wilderness, the prayer in Gethsemane, the events at the Transfiguration etc.

 

[Steve Petersen]

ALL CREATION ! Testifies to the Truth of the DEITY, YAHWEH !

And thus also His Word.

This is the sound of the wall going up, the gates being manned, and the mind slamming shut.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

BEAUTIFUL ! THE SOUND OF SILENCE !

 

[Tinker Grey]

ALL CREATION ! Testifies to the Truth of the DEITY, YAHWEH !

And thus also His Word.

No it doesn't.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Another thing that supports the idea that the stories about Jesus are at least partly made up: How do we know what he said and did when he was supposedly alone? The Temptation in the Wilderness, the prayer in Gethsemane, the events at the Transfiguration etc.

Revelation.
Remember ? God REVEALS to little children SALVATION and EVERYTHING concerning SALVATION....
TO minds that are NOT SLAMMED SHUT. (sorry - He knocks , but won't force it open)

 

[Tinker Grey]

Revelation.
Remember ? God REVEALS to little children SALVATION and EVERYTHING concerning SALVATION....
TO minds that are NOT SLAMMED SHUT. (sorry - He knocks , but won't force it open)

You mean like how the Truth was revealed to Joseph Smith? Or Mohammed?

Oh wait. That can't be right ... they disagree with you.

 

[inquiring mind]

Accurate and true accounts of dead people rising from the grave? This is remarkable enough to require a little more than 'well, no one ever contradicted it.'

Apparently, it was the contradictions themselves, if any, which didn’t hold water.