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Jesus of History and Myth

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by Steve Petersen, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    well there was obviously a Gospel being preached from circa 30ad, surely oral at first until they had the opportunity to write things down

    Colossians was written between 58-62 ad

    Colossians 1:16 = John 1:1+

    and everyone says John is the last Gospel written around 100ad

    they say all of the other gospels were written in the 70-80s AD

    but the High Christology of the Gospel of John was already present in Paul's writings 40 years before John was written...

    and decades before our surviving Greek translations of Latin Mark and Hebrew Matthew were composed

    with all due respect, this discussion is preposterous - Jesus was crucified by the Jews on the capital charge of blasphemy = just shy of equating himself with God...

    and ratified by the Romans for claiming to be , lord of lords king of kings

    and as a lowly humble itinerant preacher, he only was only able to claim to be world emperor... Because of the miracles attributed to him!

    miracles => claim to be the messiah => charged with blasphemy and crucified for denying Caesar

    remove any of those links of cause and effect and there remains no coherent explanation for what happened
     
  2. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    even if so...

    that is still 30 years before John

    and the high Christology of Colossians 1:16 = John 1:1+

    John did NOT exalt Christ above what had been written down at least 30 years earlier

    miracles => claim to be the messiah => charged with blasphemy and crucified for denying Caesar

    remove any of those links of cause and effect and there remains no coherent explanation for what happened

    there was no gradual exultation - Jesus claimed miracles proved he was the long prophesied global messiah, with all that necessarily entails straight from the first

    you have to acknowledge that what the gospels say happened is what happened... Or what appeared to happen

    the only super skeptical stance surmisable from Scriptures and such is the Schonfield "Passover Plot" position, that Jesus and company faked everything... Like with the feeding of the five thousand they all had bread and fish up their sleeves and dealt them into the distribution to simulate a miracle or something like that

    so they fake all the miracles, fake the resurrection, and use all the fakery to claim to be world Messiah vetted by God in heaven...

    straight from the first

    but the high Christology attributed to Jesus was attributed to every other Messianic claimant - only ONE job description they all vied for

    just par for that course

    the only thing any of them ever exaggerated was their CREDENTIALS... Not the ROLE itself

    maybe all of the miracles were faked and staged... But they all LOOKED like they happened...

    or none of this ever would have started much less gotten off the ground

    you're saying the Apostles exaggerated Jesus... AFTER he claimed to be GLOBAL WORLD LONG PROPHESIED MESSIAH LORD OF LORDS KING OF KINGS?!

    that makes no sense and is actually completely impossible, violates logic and cause and effect

    if they ever got together to exaggerate Jesus into the running for MESSIAH...

    then the scheme was hatched BEFORE Jesus
    started wandering Judea APPEARING to perform miracles to justify his otherwise outlandish claim to be MESSIAH

    more or less as Hugh Schonfield alleged in The Passover Plot
     
  3. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    It's not quite this simple sir. I have many points, and you cannot discount or discard them, as they all intertwine with each other.

    The Gospel accounts, for the last days of Jesus' life don't match. If God was providing a 'guiding hand' to the accounts of Jesus' final days, then they should not directly contradict one another.


    -- Where was Jesus taken immediately after his arrest?

    Matthew, Mark and Luke say that Jesus was taken directly to the high priest (Matthew 26:57, Mark 14:53 and Luke 22:54). John says that Jesus was taken first to Annas, the father-in-law of the high priest (John 18:13) who, after an indeterminate period of time, sent Jesus to the high priest (John 18:24). They cannot both be right.


    -- When did the priests and scribes gather together to question Jesus? The synoptics conflict with John there as well. They cannot both be right.

    -- Who found the empty tomb?

    According to John 20:1-4, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb alone, saw the stone removed, ran to find Peter, and returned to the tomb with Peter and another disciple. The synoptics states she was not alone. They cannot both be right.

    -- Who did the woman/women tell of the empty tomb?

    The original end of Mark states no one (Mark 16:8). John states Mary Magdalene announces to the disciples that she has seen the Lord (John 20:18). They cannot both be right.
     
  4. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    they don't
    they can and are
    they can and are
    they can and are
    they can and are



    ---------------------------------------------
    The devil loves when people die and don't trust God.

    The devil 'hates' it, and God Loves it, when people trust God and are saved.

    Simple.
     
  5. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    Blank counter assertions, and denying what is directly written in the book you so dearly want to believe, only exposes your intellectual dishonesty ;)
     
  6. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    Rather "the Just shall LIVE BY FAITH" and shall know the Truth about Salvation as (and only as) Yahweh Reveals Salvation to little children, and HIDES IT from the educated.

    Without FAITH , it is impossible to please Yahweh.


    There is no honesty outside of God's Grace, and Truth, in Jesus.

    The natural mind, the mind of men, CANNOT comprehend Truth, nor any part of God's Kingdom, nor can see God's Kingdom (heaven) ever.

    Only by grace, through faith (and that a gift, and a choice for those willing, only) , can anyone be saved.

    Choose TODAY who you will serve.

    Then that's that.

     
  7. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    The destruction of Jerusalem had an important secondary effect. The Jewish Christians of the Jerusalem Church died in their thousands alongside their Jewish brothers and sisters. The Jewish branch of the early Christian Church never fully recovered. If the Christian faith were to survive at all, it was going to have to do so in the Gentile world dominated by Rome. By this point in time the Romans were already beginning to show hostility toward the Christians. It certainly did no good to the Christian cause to point out to their Roman persecutors that they were being held responsible for the death of Jesus.

    There was certainly no denying the fact that the Romans had carried out the execution of Jesus, but perhaps the situation could be made more palatable if the actual blame for the execution was shifted from the Romans to the Jews. We are talking here about a matter of survival, the message of God's love as embodied in the life and teaching of Jesus simply had to survive. Putting the blame on the Jews must have seemed harmless, since at the time it looked very much like the Jews were finished anyhow.

    In the end the Christian Church did survive and prosper. However the Jews survived as well. No one could possibly have predicted the depth of their faith, their great loyalty to their traditions and to each other and their tenacious resilience in the face of terrible hardship.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2019
  8. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The former is an abbreviated account, The latter is more detailed. Offering. Extra information not included, the first time around. That's why John wrote in the 1st place.

    Perfectly consistent



    Nowhere does John use the word alone. He says Mary, Magdalene went to the tomb. Matthews gospel in this case provides more detail Mary Magdeleine went to the tomb with the other Mary. One account is an abbreviated version of the other. But they are both completely self consistent.
     
  9. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jewish. Christians in Jerusalem? Heeded the warning in prophecy of Jesus and so escaped from the city to Pella In Jordan.

    Ironically enough. Modern Rabbinical Judaism. Stems from its founder Rabbi Yohanan Ben Zakkai. Although he did not flee Jerusalem with the other Jewish Christians. He nevertheless fled the city. He did what Jesus said, and he and his rabbinical followers lived.
     
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  10. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    I've heard that legend too.
     
  11. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Pella

    Eusebius says so

    According to Eusebius (History of the Church 3:5), Jewish Christians of Jerusalem took refuge here during the first Jewish revolt against Rome (AD 66-70) and Pliny mentions its famous spring (HN 5.16.70).
    Pella reached its greatest size during the Byzantine era when trade routes strengthened and local industries developed. During this time many monasteries were constructed and the city had its own Christian bishop as early as AD 451. The population at this time may have been as high as 25,000.
     
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  12. Steve Petersen

    Steve Petersen Senior Veteran

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    I find it curious that the NT seems to praise the Romans and vilify the Jews. This suggests that the NT writers were either Hellenist Jews or that they were Gentile.
     
  13. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter

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    Do you not consider 'it was just the way it was' as an option?
     
  14. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    True Christian apologetics at work here :) I find it interesting how you then conveniently skipped the following....

    Mark 16:8 '8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid'

    (or)

    John 20:1-2 '20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”

    How did this get fixed? We actually have an example of what I've be eluding to all along. Which is, the further one goes backwards, regarding found written content, the more they deviate. Case and point, even addressed by the 'Bible Gateway':

    ************

    Mark 16:8-20 New International Version (NIV)
    8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.a]">[a]


    [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.]


    9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11 When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.


    *****

    They cannot both be right.

    Later writers add, subtract, and modify, when such selected works are finally canonizing by the biased church accordingly. Above is a classic example.
     
  15. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    man, has anyone ever nitpicked your words this much?

    If Mary Magdalene hadn't told anybody Nobody would have come to the tomb. Because everybody else was despondent. They had given up. If the other Apostles could. Have claimed. That they didn't need Mary Magdalene's. Witness, That they had been so faithful as to visit the tomb on their own surely they would have said so.

    The short ending of Mark concludes with the following Sentences:

    "Then they quickly reported all these instructions to those around Peter. After this, Jesus himself also sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen."

    The obvious non nitpicking response. Is that Mary Magdeleine and the others didn't tell any strangers. But they made a beeline for the Apostles, and informed only them. They didn't tell any outsiders.
     
  16. inquiring mind

    inquiring mind associate with those you can learn from Supporter

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    I agree.
     
  17. Erik Nelson

    Erik Nelson Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The surviving Republican trappings. of. The Principate. The earliest phase of. The Empire. Helped the Christians survive. Persecutions from non Christian Jews. As for example, Saint Paul appealing to Caesar. So sparing his life at the time

    the Jewish Talmud. vilifies Christians? Whereas surviving Roman documents like the letters between Emperor Trajan and Pliny the Younger. Do not. Plani and tragen show the same. "Non inquisitional" Approach. To Christians in 112. AD as Pilate showed in 30. AD. They didn't seek out Christians and they didn't except anonymous accusations. Though they did prosecute Christians. If charges were brought against them publicly. Same as governor Pilate. 80 years before.

    Christian opinion of Jews and Romans transparently reflects the opinion of those groups. Of Christians.
     
  18. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to fast-forward about a projected 20-30 posts of back and forth....

    If there is a God, I doubt God would rely upon human writings to convey truth. Why?


    The Bible states all scripture is 'God inspired', in more than one spot. If such is/was the case, one might conclude the following:


    1. The originals would be preserved. We have no originals. We start with small fragments of copied copies. When we finally find/have full writings, they had most certainly been recopied many many times. Meaning, if God was inspiring such works, God would have needed to assure that each and every re-copy was ALL monitored and ALL supervised to preserve the original message. This would mean that every scribe, writing Gospel literature decades/centuries later, would have had to of received God's intervention. Not just John, Mark, etc.... Hence, the earliest full manuscripts found, centuries later would have had to of had the same absolute guiding hand as John, Mark, Saul. etc... Seems like a truly vacuous proposition to perform. Especially in the light of the fact that we see deviations ;)

    2. We don't know what was first written. Sorry. But we do have examples of later revisions, where the further one goes backwards, the more they deviate (i.e) Mark 16:8 to Mark 16:9, followed by Matthew, and John.


    3. If all scripture is God inspired, this indicated one author, (God), and the Gospel writers are nothing more than mere 'ghost writers' for God. So why would such works deviate? I find it rather curious how apologists will then conclude. 'Well, this was John's account, or this was Mark's account.' Again, if the works were God guided, it would NOT matter who the perceived author was. In a sense, the apologist is shooting them self in the foot. Such a conclusion would indicate we are to instead rely upon fallible human interpretation, where the details differ. So which one is it?


    4. It appears more-so concluded that the later powers-that-be (the church), that the recognized church/theocracy placed together what they wanted to place together, to create an authoritative canon and/or doctrine.
     
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  19. JackRT

    JackRT Flat earther waking up ... Supporter

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    Charles B. Waite in his History of the Christian Religion to the Year 200 writes of Eusebius: "No one has contributed more to Christian history, and no one is guilty of more errors. The statements of this historian are made, not only carelessly and blunderingly, but in many instances in falsification of the facts of history. Not only the most unblushing falsehoods, but literary forgeries of the vilest character darken the pages of his writing."
     
  20. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    No. Why? My words are not 'God inspired.' Nor do I claim them to be ;)

    We don't know who went where, and when. All we have are inconsistent writings, where the further one goes backwards, the more they deviate.

    Please read post #238
     
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