Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Gee mooncrest, i would think as the Son of God, the Son would then be heir to the throne? He sits now, on the right hand of God the Father, till His enemies are made His footstool. When He comes back it is as King of Kings so therefore would he not be inheriting the right of reign? And thus, we also, as joint heirs, reign with Him.
Is that what you mean?
Originally posted by DeleseRose
I tell u, I seriously need a firewall should GOD, JESUS, n The HOLY SPIRIT decide to send lightning bolts in the vacinity of some of the posters in this thread.
GOD grant us wisdom to comprehend your written WORD. Grant us understanding and deter us from hasty decisions and thus believing in the doctrines of devils.
The SEED Christ: "Now to Abraham and his SEED were the PROMISES made. He does NOT say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your SEED," who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).
You emphasized YOU, the ONLY true God but did not emphasize AND Jesus Christ. Your emphasis prompts the reader to understand that they may know the Father, but skipped over knowing the Son.Jesus SAID: "Father, the hourhas come.... And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU SENT" (John 17:1,3).
Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Ed,
Did you realize what you just posted?
The SEED Christ: "Now to Abraham and his SEED were the PROMISES made. He does NOT say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your SEED," who is Christ" (Gal. 3:16).
You just said, 'Not many, but as of one' Are you trying to say there that Christ is the only seed spoken of? And if so, then why did you then post "And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's SEED, and HEIRS according to the PROMISE" (Gal. 3:29).
That just explained that the word SEED, includes more than one person. Kinda like my great grandfathers seed includes me.
Being heir, AS the Son, doesnt mean Jesus isnt God. Are you implying that Jesus was not born of a virgin?
The next post quoted PART of scripture without any context. It even skipped over and plucked out a few words to make it say only a certain thing.
Jesus SAID: "Father, the hour has come.... And this is eternal life, that they may know YOU, the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom YOU SENT" (John 17:1,3).
You emphasized YOU, the ONLY true God but did not emphasize AND Jesus Christ. Your emphasis prompts the reader to understand that they may know the Father, but skipped over knowing the Son.
The emphasis of this post is on knowing that the Father is the ONLY true God - not on knowing the son who was SENT by the ONLY true God.
You also conveniently skipped, in verse 1 even, "Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You." and verse 2, that states He, Jesus, as the giver of eternal life. Can a mere man do that?
These parts of the verse do NOT cross out what the parts I emphasized TEACH. Of course, Jesus was NOT a MERE man. He was an extraordinary man. But John 17:3 says he is NOT God because the Father (not he) is the ONLY true God!
And of course, verse 5, And now O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Thats a pretty big one to skip over, as though reading the rest, without that, sais it all. How did Jesus have glory with the Father before the world was?
Again, this verse does NOT cross out John 17:3 which says that the Father is the ONLY true God. How the Son got the glory WITH the Father BEFORE the world was is IRRELEVANT. That does NOT in any way make Jesus God because he is the SON - not the Father who is the ONLY true God.
Simple. They were always together, as One God. How can that be? According to you its a lie. When you say God, what is that? What is God? In the beginning God created.....was Jesus there? According to John He was.
Are you telling me that you are MORE authoritative than Jesus? Are you telling me that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is false? Show me where it CLEARLY says that they were always together as ONE God? And don't make apostle John say what he did not say, please!
God said, Let Us make man...who is us?
Where does it say that it was Jesus whom God was talking to? Only in your head my friend. I suggest you consult a head doctor.
"You seek to kill Me, a man". Yes, Jesus WAS a man. God did send Him, but send Him from where? He had to BE before He can be sent. John said, He had glory with the Father before the world was. Doesnt it stand then, that Jesus was of the US in Genesis?John the Baptist was a MAN sent by God (John 1:6). Was John with God also? Your SPECULATION will get nowhere. It is safer to BELIEVE what is CLEARLY written and understood - ME, a MAN (John 8:40) and YOU, the ONLY true God (John 17:3).
Why is it so hard to TRULY believe Jesus and do as he says?
Ed
Originally posted by Prodigious Prime
Oh Hello,
I'm very new to this Polemic Universe.
I'm pleased to meet all of you.
I hope that I can contribute something to this dialogue by pointing out that there does exist a three-way relationship analogous to the Holy Trinity:
Time, Space, and Matter.
Time and Matter seem to be able to inhabit the latter, at the same time.
Even though each of these are clearly separate concepts, they all seem to be inextricably linked to one other.
Isn't possible that the almighty created reality (time, space, and matter) in His image.
-Food for thought
Thanks.
That is unfortunate. Why make emphasis on knowing the Father but not the Son when the verse does say, 'that they may know You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom You sent.' The everlasting life spoken of here comes through KNOWING them BOTH. I know, your point was to emphasize and separate the ONLY true God and skip knowing them both, which that verse makes inseparable. Jesus doesnt say THAT the Father is the only true God, He sais: that they may know You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ,(which here He is speaking in a third person) it clearly combines them into knowing BOTH. Knowing one, means knowing both. Does it say the ONE and only? The emphasis of this post is on knowing that the Father is the ONLY true God - not on knowing the son who was SENT by the ONLY true God.
Irrelevant? That Jesus had Glory with the Father before the world is meaningless? I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another(Isa 42:8)How the Son got the glory WITH the Father BEFORE the world was is IRRELEVANT. That does NOT in any way make Jesus God
What Jesus said in John 17:3 i already stated above. Jesus, as the Son, in flesh, on earth is praying. He gives honor to His Father, by calling Him, of course the only true God and also mentions HIMSELF, by name. Why does He use His own name as if He is a third party narrater?Are you telling me that you are MORE authoritative than Jesus? Are you telling me that what Jesus SAID in John 17:1,3 is false? Show me where it CLEARLY says that they were always together as ONE God? And don't make apostle John say what he did not say, please!
I didnt say God was talking to Jesus. Jesus IS the Word. I simply asked you, in Genesis, where it sais, Let US make man.....who is Us?Where does it say that it was Jesus whom God was talking to? Only in your head my friend. I suggest you consult a head doctor.
No, John had a biological father, Zacharias.(Luke1) Who by the way, was told by Gabriel that his son, John, 'will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God'. John the Baptist was a MAN sent by God (John 1:6). Was John with God also?
Originally posted by EveOfGrace
Evee,
Yes, Jesus is the Son of God. He is also called the Son of Man. How do you reckon this? How can He be both?
The scriptures i posted above, such as I and My Father are ONE.
And in the beginning the Word(Jesus) WAS God.
Before He came here, housed in flesh, was He non existant? Before God sent Him, where was He and Who was He?
If He was ONLY a man, then why the need of a virgin?
EveOfGrace
the son of Mary? Mary was a woman. doesnt it go a little farther than that?Jesus had a heavenly father and an earthly mother. He is the Son of God and the son of Mary (man). Not that hard to see.
Word is translated from LOGOS. LOGOS - a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea.
First you said LOGOS means a word, uttered by a LIVING voice. Then you say its a plan? And because the 'plan' was not physical it was then not active? So the old testament prophets were speaking of something inactive. Doesnt it say, the Logos WAS God and with God? Was God then inactive because He is Spirit rather than a physical manifestation? Even if you use the word 'plan', it still sais, and the Plan was with God and the Plan was God. Either way, Word, Logos, Plan, it still sais WAS GOD. And the word, logos, plan, was MADE FLESH and dwelt among us. You said God created Jesus in the womb of Mary. But God sais that He already WAS, in the beginning. And all things were made through Him. Does that sound inactive? WAS GOD, and MADE flesh. Yes, the LOGOS (plan) of God was manifested as Jesus. But until that small baby was born in Bethlehem, the plan was not physical. It was still in the mind of God. When God created Jesus in the womb of Mary, then the plan became active.
One in our beliefs and that is all that unifies us? What goal are we working toward that makes us one? We are ONE BODY. What? This must really be hard for you if you see Jesus as separate from God.In the verses listed above, Jesus speaks of those that God has given to Jesus as being one just as God and Jesus are one. Now does this mean that we are all the same person. No, it means that we are unified (one) in our beliefs and are all working toward the same goal.
Why would I not address Father as Jehovah? I call Jesus by His name as well, or "my Lord". I also address the Holy Spirit as "Holy Spirit" or "teacher". or "my comfort". I do usually say, "Father", or "my Abba", or sometimes "Dad", but not because i do not recognize Him as Jehovah. I use Daddy for much the same reason i do not address my earthly father as Patrick. "hi Pat, how was your day, want some dinner?" just doesnt seem appropriate. Even Jesus said 'Our Father', as reverence. Good grief, i dont need to add to a mystery when i see no mystery. Not addressing the heavenly Father by name then....can add to the mystery of their 3 in 1 god by using titles.
Imagine....if Jesus was the Almighty God.....what a farce the account in the Bible would be of Satan offering Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for an act of worship. On the other hand.....if Jesus was not Almighty God.....it could be tempting to become ruler of the world and not have to go through the prospects that lay ahead for Jesus (his pitiful death).
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