Jesus is the SON not the Father.

[wonder111]

why did Jesus say "why do you call me good teacher? only God is good"?

curious

 

[jessedance]

wonder; obviously cause Jesus isn't god. He is God's boy. only God is good Jesus was rebuking the guy for calling him goood.

 

[Der Alte]

wonder; obviously cause Jesus isn't god. He is God's boy. only God is good Jesus was rebuking the guy for calling him goood.

Jesus NEVER denied being good or God. In fact He said He was the "good shepherd." The OT says very clearly that God is the shepherd.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Psa 23:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psa 80:1 <To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.> Give ear, O shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.
2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save us.
3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
4 O LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] God of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people?

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
​

 

[True Believer]

What you "believe" about Trinitarians, is no more accurate than someone telling you what you believe. Now, if you could back this nonsense up that would be a different story. And I don't mean the teachings of some David Koresh or Jim Jones wannabe. I mean the official writings of any recognized denomination.

I have never seen an official from the church description of the Trinity ,you are right.
I do have friends and relitives who believe the Trinity and I wrote what these believe I also wrote that there MAY be more definitions. I have seen 4 different explanations right here in the forum. I did not say what I believe. I don't believe in the Trinity. But you must see that all Trinitarians do not agree on exactly what the definition is.

 

[True Believer]

Ignoring posts which disagree with you does not change the facts. The Jewish religious leaders tried to stone Jesus, on more than one occasion, when He only claimed to be the Son of God. Do you think He would have been believed and not stoned if he had openly proclaimed that He was God?

This in it's self would show that Jesus had no reason not to tell his Apostles he was God Almighty if he was because they already wanted to and tried to kill Jesus, so there would be no reason not to say he was God if he was. But he constantly pointed to his Father as God and discoraged his followers from that belief.

1 Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten God, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

​

The oldest most reliable manuscripts have "only begotten God" in Jn 1:18. Some versions have "only begotten son"

What you claim to be the oldest and most reliable because they back up your theory!!!!




Actually you are the one that is not letting scripture interpret scripture, look at how many times you say, "I think, I believe, I guess." If scripture is interpreting scripture why do you have to guess? And OBTW I don't see a lot of answers to my posts. Let's get some scripture out there and respond to me, if you can.

Why waste time debating with a closed mind. No matter the scripture anyone can twist it to their veiw point or dismiss it as not being reliable or come up with the Earlty Church Fathers like they were some kind of infallible men with out their own agenda.The Churches survive and even thrive on donations given by their followers my grand mother would eat dog food and give every other cent to the chuches. There is proof of Mexican orphanages being visited by priests adorned in gold and jewels while the children starved saying the jewelry belonged to the church so they could not use it to buy food for the starving.THE REVERED CHURCH FATHERS!
This is only an example of the greed of the leaders.

 

[True Believer]

Jesus NEVER denied being good or God. In fact He said He was the "good shepherd." The OT says very clearly that God is the shepherd.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

True Believer
I believe a better translation here is fine not good. Compare Luke 18:19
Luke 18:19-Why do you call me good ? Nobody is good exceptone,God
Now go to your Greek and see if the Greek word translated as GOOD is the same at all three verses. I can tell you now it is not even close.

Psa 23:1 <A Psalm of David.> The LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] is my shepherd; I shall not want.

Psa 80:1 <To the chief Musician upon Shoshannimeduth, A Psalm of Asaph.> Give ear, O shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.
2 Before Ephraim and Benjamin and Manasseh stir up thy strength, and come and save us.
3 Turn us again, O God, and cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved.
4 O LORD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] God of hosts, how long wilt thou be angry against the prayer of thy people?

Isa 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD [&#1497;&#1492;&#1493;&#1492;] will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.


​

The Hebrews only believed in one God Jehovah.He was their Shepherd because he was their protector just as a shepherd protects his flock !

The Jews had drifted away from the beliefs of the ancient Hebrews, That is some of what Jesus rebuked them for.

 

[explorerofmind]

I think that Jesus is our father, but in a different way than God the Father is.

It would take this forum a whole nother direction if I were to explain that one.

 

[jessedance]

explorer; Is it your own personal theology that Jesus is the father or that of the church you attend? sounds kinda like the UPC.

 

[explorerofmind]

Well, It's sort of my own oppinion. I'm not sure what part of my religion says that he is. I'm pretty sure that the Idea came from thier writings, though. I'd preffer not to advertise a particular religion as my own. Most people on this sight should be able to guess it,though.
I think that god created my spirit originally. My mother and father created my body, and Jesus created the way that my soul can be born into a more devine state.


Oh, here's my oppinion on the trinnity:

I believe when God says " I am the Lord, and there is none else," that he is only telling us that he is the one we should follow. See 'Lord' in dictionary.

I believe that the mystery behind when God says "there is no other God beside me can be found when we discover what the word 'beside' means.

In the Bible Jesus says that he and the father are one. In john 17 He shows that his desciples can become one with him. Do they all become the same person and God? If this isn't what the scriptural use of the term 'one' means, then what do you think it means? Obviosely not what some people think.

The other scripture that people use in thier theory about the trinity is when Jesus says " when you have seen me you have seen the father" I believe that he means that they are one and the same, but only the same way that the disciples will become one. I believe you can look at a person who has the glory of god in them, and see god's countenance. When you know one, you know the other because they have become the same (perfect) AMEN

This is my writting Coppyright Explorerofmind

the views expressed in this post have been inspired by other sources besides Xp's mind.

 

[ps139]

Why waste time debating with a closed mind. No matter the scripture anyone can twist it to their veiw point or dismiss it as not being reliable or come up with the Earlty Church Fathers like they were some kind of infallible men with out their own agenda.The Churches survive and even thrive on donations given by their followers my grand mother would eat dog food and give every other cent to the chuches. There is proof of Mexican orphanages being visited by priests adorned in gold and jewels while the children starved saying the jewelry belonged to the church so they could not use it to buy food for the starving.THE REVERED CHURCH FATHERS!
This is only an example of the greed of the leaders.

So you are equating the Church Fathers - disciples of the disciples - with Mexican priests?
You are also saying that since they act hypocritically, their beliefs must be wrong, they are not worth listening to.
If they believe in the Trinity, they must be wrong, because their actions are so horrible.
If they believe in God, they must be wrong because their actions are so horrible.
If they believe that 1+1=2, they must be wrong because their actions are so horrible.

 

[jessedance]

explorer; Peter II 1:20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, ' if your interpretation of the scripture is just your own well then i believe that it has to be wrong. God reveals his scriptures to more than just one person. So that, if your the only one believing something it didnt come from god.
Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.' god reveals the scriputres and he reveals them to his saints. He reveals the scripture to those who are open to his leading. If your the only one beieving something that says to me that God hasnt revealed it to you.

 

[explorerofmind]

Hey Jesse,

If God has revealed it to you doesn't it mean that it's not just your interpretation? It’s God's opinion also.

For the same reason that I'm making no claim to my religion, I'm not making any claim to whether or not God has revealed this opinion to me, but...

IMPORTANT PART--> If God is telling you so, then it is not a private interpretation by any means. It’s God’s opinion being given to you.<---IMPORTANT PART

However a belief, that not only I believe, is that all true knowledge comes from God whether he hands it to them or just puts it within their ability to find. Just as all good things come from him.

I know this probably isn’t what you were trying to say, in general, but just because no other man believes it, it doesn’t make it wrong. I believe this is true in all cases.

I believe that 2 peter 1: 20 is simply showing us that people aren’t supposed to make up a meaning to the scriptures, but that they should look to find what God is trying to tell them by the words.

They can look to other scriptures that expound more on the subject, they can look to people who talk to God and have asked him already what the scripture means, or they could ask for the Holly Spirit to enter into their hearts for the purpose of letting them know.

Anyways the purpose of this post is to answer you and also inform you that that scripture doesn’t say that because one person knows something about scripture that other people know it.

Please feel free to continue making comments to my posts, though.

I appreciate the attention.

 

[jessedance]

explorer; well , I guess we can't take this too far. Iwould just say that God wants us all to know as much about him as possible, and that he is trying to reveal the true meaning of his word to everyone. sometimes we accept what the holy spirit is teaching us and sometimes we dont. Interpreting scripture should be, in my opinion, to try and understand what God means when he says what he says not what we think it means. god could have written the bible in such a way that everyone would pretty much have the same beliefs. He could have explained vague scriputres but he didnt. So what we have to do is lean upon the leading of the holy spirit, to understand god's word more fully. Everyone just about would say they do that but we all know that everyone doesnt do that. even dedicated christians who have a deep relationship with God do not always do that.
I believe that Gods word is pruposely vague in places in order that we will be able to make decisions for god with our free will and not with our intellect. we make choices everyday for or against god. People who reject tongues for example can find in the bible verses they can use to support their belief that tongues are of the devil or tongues have ceased because God made those verses not crystal clear. Therefore someone who doesnt want to go that deep in a relationship with god can find a way out intellectucally and feel that he is right. God didn't violate that persons free will to choose to speak in tongues or not by stating it crystal clear. He made it somewhat vague. here a little and there a little precept upon precept. it's easy to get lost that way without the leading of the holy spirit.

 

[jessedance]

explorer; As an addendum, I would like to say that it is my belief, and that of my church, that the real reason people want to believe that Jesus is god or that God is made up of 3 persons including jesus, is so that they wont have to get closer to god than they already are.
You see, if you believe that Jesus is god then you can say to yourself somewhere in the recesses of your mind that naturally Jesus could do that he is god. god can do anything but i'm just a man . so then you have a way to get out of trying to be christ like. we are all to become christ like but if christ is god then that goal becomes unatainable . If Jesus is a man and not god then we cant say to ourselfs that jesus is god and we arent so we cant do it. we have to say "I can do all things through christ that strengtheneth me." IN christ I can do anything. I can be like christ, he was a man I am a man, I can do it.
so saying jesus is god enables you to stay distant from god to some extent. it disenables you to move closer to god that believing Jesus is a man would enable you to.
we can never be like god so if jesus is god we can never be like jesus . but if jesus is a man then we can do it.

 

[explorerofmind]

Amen to your first post today Jesse. I liked and agreed with everything you said in it.

 

[explorerofmind]

Oh, and thanks for agreeing with me.

I believe we can become like christ too.

In fact I believe that that is what he is saying when he tells people to come follow him.

My religion goes deep into scriptures like: Be ye therefore perfect even as I and your father in heaven is perfect. Some of our Ideas about Jesus' relationship to God don't match any of the teachings in other churches directly. In fact I think most people would take them as a little too extreem.

If I were to write some of the ideas it holds, almost everyone who is really strong in their faith on this site would disagree with me.

And then we'd get into hot debates, wich I try to stay out of, because I believe that the purpose of religion is to build up peoples faith, not to pull it down. And When I get heated I always seam to attack things that I shouldn't, like people's religion.

Here's one Idea it holds that's a little extreem: That, People can become like God too!

Like I said, it's pretty out there, But if you think about it man can't feed thousands of people with two loaves and three fishes, or walk on water, or read people's minds, or heal the sick just by faith,acording to what most people can see, but these are just a few of the things that Jesus and the desciples, who are men, did.
Of course they didn't do it with their own power. And these acts are nothing compared with eternal acts, but the thoughts help the extreem doctrine settle a little bettetr in my oppinion.

 

[explorerofmind]

There is more that backs that last belief up though, I just had to throw that in.

 

[jessedance]

explorer;
debates don't have to become heated. No one has to get hot and angry. If one practices self control and does not let insults from people get to one then it becomes second nature not to fly off the handle when someone says something impolite or insulting or rude. If someone is rude, impolite and insulting over and over and over, I just stop reading their posts. If thats the way they want to discuss Christ well let them discuss Christ with others who like flying off the handle.
your comments about your religon only fuel my curiosity about what religon it is and what those beliefs are.
it's pretty obvious what Jesus relation ship to god is from the scripture. Jesus is God's son.

 

[solar_mirth]

hey, i just kind of hopped in on this one. so i don't know what has gone on on all of the pages. i just wanted to ask something.

when did Jesus stop being God? the early church plainly believed him to be God in the flesh. read my post in the thread titled "mormons" it's on the 4th page. it is a list of quotes from the early church leaders who were disciples of the apostles. all of them believed Christ to be God incarnate. if the apostles taught that Jesus was God, when did he stop being so?

 

[solar_mirth]

also, believing Jesus to be God doesn't get us out of anything. it is important to remember that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man at the same time. He had all of God wrapped in man. also, if Jesus were purely man, why did it have to be him that was sinless? no man has the ability to deny sin by himself. and because there was no permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, Jesus had to be different. if he was just a man, why did not someone else die for us?
also, how can God have a son that is not God? i can't have a child that is not human. why is it different with God? it only seems logical that if Jesus is the only begotten of the Father (and remember, "begotten" does not mean that God gave birth to Him, but rather Jesus "issued forth" from God), then He would share the divine nature of God.