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Jesus is the Reason for Calvinism

Humble_Disciple

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The only reason why I started this thread was to show that Calvinists love Jesus, and that we do take the words of Jesus seriously. The fact that all five points of Calvinism can be demonstrated from the Gospels alone shows that Calvinists care about the person and message of Christ.

Calvinists don't worship John Calvin. There would be no reason to accept Calvinism if it weren't supported by the Bible. The only reason why it's called "Calvinism" is because John Calvin popularized the doctrines of grace.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Isaiah 55:8-9
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

1 Corinthians 2:15-16
The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for,“Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

Romans 11:34
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been His counselor?
 
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fhansen

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What does the doctrine of "irresistible grace" mean to you? How would you define it, to the best of your understanding? It's better to reject a doctrine for what it is than a strawman that has been made of it.
Since grace is more than favor, but rather the life and the love of the Spirit in us, prompting and moving us to do His will, and since believers often fail to do His will, it's obvious that grace is resistible. That's why sin is even possible, in fact, and God did not create man to sin, and the Spirit now empowers us to overcome sin, and yet we sin. The point is that man can always say no to God, finally to a degree and with a persistence that constitutes a compete turning away from Him, from love of Himself and neighbor.
The God of Calvinism is a step different in nature, with Luther's God similar but not quite as far removed from truth IMO. Augustine's views change, depending on his audience and purpose; Paul was similar in that manner. Both fought legalism in any case.

The Church's basic doctrines on grace were laid down at the 2nd council of orange: The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529), largely based on Augustine's writings decades earlier. No Reformer should have any argument with the canons listed there until they get to "Conclusions", which continues with the true gospel on justification and salvation accurately taught.

Now, you can pick the following apart but I believe it to accurately reflect the Reformed view vs the Catholic view on some relevant points:

Calvinism focuses myopically on certain passages of Scripture and comes up with a fairly plausible interpretation that nonetheless flies in the face of the overall perspective of the bible (including many specific passages)-as well as the historic understanding of the Christian faith in the east and west. When Scripture and our faith are looked at from the big picture we have the case where sin, an act of the human will beginning with disobedience of God, resulted in death for man, an anomalous, disordered state of separation between himself and his Creator, which casted man into a brave new world of "freedom" where his own will reigns and untold amounts of more sin and atrocities have been committed by man against fellow man as a result.

God never abandoned man, however, but began working immediately on His plan of saving him, a plan that would involve patiently revealing Himself to and guiding and preparing man, eventually through a chosen people, over centuries, to the point where He would finally reveal Himself fully through the person and work of His Son. During all this time sin continued to separate man from God, causing pain and suffering ending in death. The best that could come out of that experience for man is the development of a hatred of sin/evil and a hunger for truth and justice, for something more than man's world had to offer. If nothing else this world provides the perfect milieu for learning that man's will, when left to its own devices, cannot bring any kind of lasting happiness or satisfaction at best, and brings all kinds of ugliness, sin and evil, at worst. It cannot bring life. Man needs something more. And when that Something comes knocking at our door now, we just might be barely smart or wise enough, with grace prompting, to open it. Or not.
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with Me." Rev 3:20

We're here to learn what Adam didn't yet appreciate in Eden:
"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

From Eden until now the issue has centered around the human will-as the prize so to speak. Augustine works this out eloquently, incidentally, in "On Free Will" and other works. Will we remain in our pride and our sins, following the family tradition, or will we humble ourselves and turn back to God? Fallen man is characterized as sick, asleep, dead, lost, totally unable to find himself and yet not so compromised in will that he can't weakly muster a yes- or no- when God seeks and finds him, when the light is shown, because the image and voice of God remain in him even though greatly covered, dimmed, corrupted, muted, overridden by other values and agendas oriented towards our pride or preference for ourselves over Him.

But then, in the midst of this patient work of God's, of steering and educating man to finally make the right choice, to finally be truly enabled to make the right choice, of good over evil, life over death, God over no God with the advent of the new Adam, Calvinism has God suddenly saying, "Time out everyone, all the drama has been unnecessary because now I'll simply make the choice for you. Now I'll simply dispose you to choose rightly, without regard to your own will which is always wrong; I'll just make you, or some of you, into beings that can't help but will rightly, who believe in and love Me because that's the only way it can work- you're incapable of anything else. You’re not morally accountable beings anyway. And then I'll send the rest of you, who are likewise unaccountable, to eternal torment, again, without regard to your will. You can do absolutely nothing anyway, including saying “no” to Me, so I’m not blaming anyone because in your fallen state you can do nothing but sin. But I am going to send some of you to HELL regardless, because you’re sinners. All this because of the sacrifice of my Son. And at least those sinners whom I’ve regenerated can thank Me.”

In the true gospel, man can do nothing apart from God, but with Him all things are possible. Man’s first job, not without the absolute necessity of grace, is to turn back to the God he forsook in Eden. Then righteousness, automatically, will begin to prevail in him.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”
Jer 31:33

Again, the human will is the prize, so to speak, not something to be totally manipulated and controlled or overridden in order for us to choose rightly. So God seeks to draw that will into rectitude, to elicit right responses from us like a good parent who wants their children to attain true inner integrity, to own it for themselves. Grace is the means, He is the means, as we accept the offer of Himself, and continue to do so throughout our lives. That’s all we need to know; anything else would be to put the cart ahead of the horse. That’s why this whole endeavor of His has taken so much time to begin with.

His purpose isn’t to merely save a portion of otherwise worthless wretches but He’s had a much grander plan, from the beginning, to produce something, something great, something much better than He began with as He patiently leads His beloved creation into the purpose and perfection that He created it for. Otherwise, He may as well have just stocked heaven with the elect and hell with the rest from the get-go. That sure would’ve precluded a bunch of unnecessary human pain and anguish throughout history. He doesn’t want to run the whole business though, He just knows what we need to learn, that we cannot possibly operate without Him. Man's true justice or righteousness is directly proportional to the extent that he freely wants it himself. To put it another way, love is mans' righteousness, and while love is necessarily a gift of grace, it's also a human choice, or else it cannot and will not be love at all. The freer that choice, the freer from influence, the more perfected in love we are. That's God's goal for man. And as the church teaches, quoting a 16th century believer,
At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

In his later years Augustine would write this thoroughly Catholic sentiment:
"Nevertheless, lest the will itself should be deemed capable of doing any good thing without the grace of God, after saying, ‘His grace within me was not in vain, but I have labored more abundantly than they all,’ [Paul] immediately added the qualifying clause, ‘Yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.’ In other words, Not I alone, but the grace of God with me. And thus, neither was it the grace of God alone, nor was it he himself alone, but it was the grace of God with him."
 
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fhansen

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Irresistible grace doesn’t mean that God’s elect will never rebel, but that God’s grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect’s rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation.
Yes, that should be obvious enough, even if the understanding is still erroneous.
 
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fhansen

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According to the doctrine of unconditional election, saving faith is entirely the gift of God's grace, irrespective of our free-willed efforts to believe or disbelieve.
We don't argue that faith isn't entirely a gift of grace, only that we can still refuse and reject the gift-whether when first given-or at any point later.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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We have gone through a pandemic in which over 600,000 Americans have died. We need assurance of salvation now more than ever before.

Other than its support in the Bible, assurance of salvation is why I find Calvinism important. Because of unconditional election and irresistible grace, we can have assurance that God will preserve His saints.

Without the second and fourth points of Calvinism, we cannot have assurance of the fifth. This is why I've done my best to clarify what these doctrines actually mean, as well as their Biblical basis.

When you have the assurance of salvation that Calvinism provides, you can go on to humbly serve the Lord in love and gratitude, no matter what happens in life.

What is Calvinism and is it biblical?

Did the Early Church Believe the Doctrines of Grace?

This is from Martin Luther’s 97 Theses, almost twenty years before John Calvin’s The Institutes of the Christian Religion:


It’s only called “Calvinism” because John Calvin popularized the doctrines of grace, he did not originate them. It’s the same doctrines that Augustine taught against Pelagius and Luther taught against Rome.
 
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John Mullally

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I’m not here to convince non-Calvinists that they must follow Calvinism. I just want them to at least understand its Biblical and historical foundations, so that they will be less likely to condemn Calvinism for something that it isn’t.
When I was a young Christian, my friend tried to sell me on Calvinism because I wanted assurance that I would never fall away. I dismissed the sale because the product was too complex and I figured the NT would directly address such an important matter - which it does in 2 Peter 1:5-10.

At its core Calvinism rests on the fact that everything God desires, He will accomplish. My argument against that is: (a) we can both agree that many will not be saved and (b) Peter and Paul assert that God desires all people to be saved per 1 Timothy 2:4 & 1 Peter 3:9. Check them out for yourself - but these scripture passages are so unshakable that even leading Reformist John MacArthur agrees to the fact that God wants all to be saved in If God Desires All Men to Be Saved, Why Aren't They?

The fact that God does not accomplish everything that He desires does not diminish God's potency or sovereignty - it just means that God has left some things up to man. After all, God did give Adam dominion on earth. However, man's continuous rebellion was so great that both Jesus and Paul termed Satan "the god of this world". God did not give Satan that pseudo authority - guess who did.
 
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public hermit

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I definitely hear you. I could have written this OP twenty years ago. 5* Calvinism worked for me for a long time, and I still contend it's what I needed at that time. I needed to see God's sovereignty in order to trust God's love for me. And, I needed some way of understanding that was intellectually satisfying for me.

I'm still not an Arminian, but I'm much less certain of how love is distributed, and I certainly no longer believe it's not distributed evenly and across the board. I'm much more open to a radically generous distribution of grace. But that's just where I'm at, today. Still learning and trusting.
 
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Clare73

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May be time to consider God's secret will and his revealed will (Deuteronomy 29:29), an example of which is seen in Exodus 4:21-23.

"Interesting" way of phrasing belief: "worked for me because that is what I needed at the time."
 
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public hermit

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May be time to consider God's secret will and his revealed will (Deuteronomy 29:29), an example of which is seen in Exodus 4:21-23.

Can God's secret will be known?
 
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Clare73

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Can God's secret will be known?
God's will for Pharoah was secret to Pharoah, but not to Moses.

But then God was more open/clear with Moses than he was with other prophets (Numbers 12:6-8).

However, its operation can be seen in places where specific application cannot be known.
 
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dms1972

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Paul's gospel seems to be what Calvinism is based upon, not the Gospel of the Kingdom which is what Jesus preaches.

Maybe not in your gospel of grace to the gentiles.

But there is justice because there is judgment in the Gospel of the Kingdom.


From what I can see Paul preached the Gospel of the Kingdom.

eg. Acts 19:8 - at Ephesus: Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the Kingdom of God.

also Acts 17:2-4 - at Thessalonica: As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ," he said. Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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I believe I've made pretty much every Biblical and historical argument for Calvinism on this forum that one can possibly make.

As Jesus would say, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." My only intention has been to counter anti-Calvinist prejudice, that we are heretics rather than lovers of the Bible and Jesus Christ.
 
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apollosdtr

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Paul's Kingdom of God =/= Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom
Because where does Paul quote Jesus?

1 Corinthians 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Paul is quoting Luke, who so obviously wasn't there.

Matthew was there at the Last Passover, and there's "no body broken for you" in Matthew's testimony, thank the Father. Matthew 26:26-29

John was there, and says Jesus' body wasn't broken, either. John 19:33-35
 
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Humble_Disciple

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This passage doesn't make much sense except in light of unconditional election:

John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Jesus knew from the beginning who would betray him, because they were never granted to Him in the first place.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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I can tell you from personal experience that I'm not going to choose to obey God unless He chose me first. (John 15:16) When I believed in free will, I used it as a license to sin.

If Jesus bought and paid for me on the cross, as a unique individual, then He deserves my love and obedience in return.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Irresistible (enabling) grace doesn’t mean that God’s elect will never rebel, but that God’s grace is powerful enough to overcome the elect’s rebellion, transform their wills and desires, and lead them to ultimate salvation.

Irresistible Grace - is it biblical?

With this in mind, let’s take a look at the Lord’s Prayer:


In Matthew 6:9, we are asking for God’s name to be hallowed, that the hearts of God’s people will be changed by His grace, so that they will give Him all the glory.

In Matthew 6:10, we are asking that God’s will be done, not our own, on earth as it is in heaven. We are praying for God’s people to do His will, through His enabling grace.

In Matthew 6:11, we are asking that God’s grace free us to trust in His provisions, so that we will not worry over how we are to eat and drink. (Matthew 6:25)

In Matthew 6:12, we are asking God, through His grace, to enable us to forgive our neighbor’s sins, so that our own sins will be forgiven as well. (Matthew 6:14-15)

In Matthew 6:13, we are asking God for the enabling grace which turns us away from the temptations of sin and the wiles of the evil one, the devil.

None of the Lord’s Prayer makes sense without God’s enabling grace to have it accomplished, “on earth as it is in heaven.” Our own free will alone just isn’t up to the task.

If you are an Arminian who loves Jesus, that’s awesome. Your love for God matters more than the rightness of your theology. May God’s will be done in your own life too.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
 
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