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Featured JESUS is not the archangel Michael !

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by robycop3, Jun 13, 2020.

  1. klutedavid

    klutedavid Well-Known Member

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    You need to study the SDA interpretation of the scripture.

    We believe that the term "Michael" is but one of the many titles applied to the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead. (sdanet.org)

    See sparrow, I am not mistaken and it is you who is mistaken.
    The scripture does, in fact, state that the angels are created.

    Psalm 148:2-5
    Praise Him, all His angels; praise Him, all His hosts!
    Praise Him, sun and moon; praise Him, all stars of light!
    Praise Him, highest heavens, and the waters that are above the heavens!
    Let them praise the name of the Lord, for He commanded and they were created.

    Colossians 1:16
    For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

    See sparrow, you are wrong again.
    What does this verse mean to you?

    John 3:18
    He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/Quote]Michael is an archangel and the prince of the nation of Israel. Michael is but one of these princes.

    Daniel 10:13
    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes...
    The 'sons of your people' are the Jews. This revelation was given to the prophet Daniel concerning the nation of Israel.

    All the princes that guard nations will stand up at the end of days. Michael is but one of these princes.
     
  2. Word and Spirit

    Word and Spirit Member

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    Though I believe we will see SDA and JW's and Mormons in heaven I do believe that Michael the Archangel is like the Prince of Persia. It seems there are archangels assigned to countries, and Michael is the Archangel over Israel. The Prince of Persia would be a fallen archangel. Michael is not Jesus. Jesus in the Old Testament was the Angel of the Lord.
     
  3. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There is nothing in the Bible that says angels are created; Jesus is the Word of God or spokesperson of God which makes Him an angel or messenger; Jesus has many names, one is Jehovah, Michael may not be one of His names but could be.

    No we would not necessarily be told in scripture; the Spirit may tell us individually, privately. The scriptures do not tell us how Cain knew what murder was or how Cain and Able knew what was an acceptable sacrifice or offering; God told Noah to put in the Ark seven pairs of each clean animals and one pair of each unclean animals but we are not told how Noah knew what was clean or what was unclean.

    Suppose God did tell us Michael was Jesus and Jehovah, and I am not saying He hasn't said so, would we believe it; some would and some wouldn't' Jesus has told us that the Law may not be abrogated yet most calling themselves Christian have done so.

    Genesis 2:3-4 (NKJV)
    3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.
    4 This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

    Exodus 4:8 (NKJV)
    8 "Then it will be, if they do not believe you, nor heed the message of the first sign, that they may believe the message of the latter sign.

    1 Chronicles 29:29 (NKJV)
    29 Now the acts of King David, first and last, indeed they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,

    Nehemiah 8:18 (NKJV)
    18 Also day by day, from the first day until the last day, he read from the Book of the Law of God. And they kept the feast seven days; and on the eighth day there was a sacred assembly, according to the prescribed manner.

    ***

    Isaiah 40:10 (NKJV)

    10 Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him.

    Isaiah 41:4 (ASV)
    4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, the first, and with the last, I am he.

    Isaiah 41:14 (ASV)
    14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith Jehovah, and thy Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

    Isaiah 44:6 (ASV)
    6 Thus saith Jehovah, the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, Jehovah of hosts: I am the first, and I am the last; and besides me there is no God.

    Isaiah 48:12-13 (NKJV)
    12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
    13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.

    Jeremiah 50:17 (NKJV)
    17 "Israel is like scattered sheep; The lions have driven him away. First the king of Assyria devoured him; Now at last this Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon has broken his bones."

    Matthew 19:29-30 (NKJV)
    29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
    30 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

    Revelation 1:17 (NKJV)
    17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

    Revelation 2:8 (NKJV)
    8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write, 'These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life:
     
  4. Word and Spirit

    Word and Spirit Member

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    Do you believe Satan was a fallen angel?

    Ezekiel 28:
    “You were the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
    The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
    Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
    I established you;
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
    15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
    Till iniquity was found in you.
     
  5. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Michael is an archangel and the prince of the nation of Israel. Michael is but one of these princes.

    Daniel 10:13
    But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes...The 'sons of your people' are the Jews. This revelation was given to the prophet Daniel concerning the nation of Israel.

    All the princes that guard nations will stand up at the end of days. Michael is but one of these princes.[/QUOTE]


    I believe you have a problem with the word “believe”. Believe is different to knowledge; believe or belief is to do with faith, trust, hope or conviction; the SDA have a conviction that Michael is the same being as the Word of God who created all we are able to perceive; but they do not know that it is true.


    David said God created angels, I should have said God never said He created angels; He has said though, that the angels per-existed the creation accounted for in Genesis, and He calls them his sons.


    Job 38:4-7 (NKJV)
    4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.
    5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
    6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,
    7 When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Did David know that God created the angels or did he assume or believe it; I don't believe he was making a profound statement about angels, instead he was making a case for praising God.


    <<John 3:18
    He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.>>

    This is the apostle speaking; John 3:18 does not disregard or displace God has said; implied in believes id that the person has done all that is required or commanded.
     
  6. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes I believe Satan was a fallen angel but Satan wasn't it's name before it fell. Why do you think these verse refer to Satan; have you read the whole chapter? It seems to be common for Christians to conclude that these verse refer to Satan; I do not believe that; if I recall Satan in the Garden was a serpent and not perfect. The scriptures do not say but I can entertain the idea that the King of Tyre was Satan in the flesh in the same manner that Jesus was Jehovah in the flesh, yet both born of a woman and therefore created, but neither spirit was created at this time but breathed in.

    It is likely that is prophesy is for our time and even the King of Tyre is symbolic.
     
  7. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    There is nothing in the Bible to say that angels are eternal.
    If you want to believe that the Son of God is an angel based on a "could be", that's up to you. It is not orthodox Christian doctrine.

    I happen to believe that when Scripture says "Michael, the archangel" it means Michael the archangel; when it says Jesus Christ, the Son of God, it means Jesus Christ the Son of God.
    The Holy Spirit was perfectly capable of inspiring the authors to write "Jesus, who was also Michael the chief angel", if he'd wanted to.
     
  8. Word and Spirit

    Word and Spirit Member

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    Aren't you the one that claimed that angels were NOT created? Well, the cherub (one of the higher angels) was created in that passage in Ezek. 28. Satan was the first angel that iniquity was found in him. He was in the Garden of Eden before he fell, and it was his convicing Eve, "did God really say..." that was the iniquity found in him. Satan, Eve and
    If Adam had not sinned, he would have lived for eternity.

    Michael was the archangel over the country of Israel. He is not Jesus, the Son of God, and IS God.
     
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No, I said that ALL things, including angels, were created through Jesus.
     
  10. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not see anything necessarily wrong with what the SDA do regarding the interpretation of prophesy, even though I disagree with them often. If they were to allow there interpretations to replace the scripture, that would be a problem; as with orthodox doctrine.
     
  11. Word and Spirit

    Word and Spirit Member

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    Look again. I said that to @sparrow
     
  12. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Sorry, my post was quoted in your reply, but I missed that your question was indeed to someone else.
     
  13. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I haven't claimed angels are not created, for one thing I wouldn't know what that meant. First I said the Bible doesn't say angels are created; last I said, God never said angels were created; and you quoted Ezek 28 14-15 and I suggested you read the whole chapter.


    Ezek 28 is about the King or Prince of Tyre; This prince is man not an ark angel; and it is a vision Ezekiel is having and is all symbolism; that the king of Tyrus is a man and at the same time is also an anointed cherub I find confusing, but no more confusing than in chapter one where there are men with four heads and four wings; but that the prince of Tyrus is Satan is an assumption at best. Adam was in the garden and iniquity was found in him; was Adam Satan or was the Serpent a cherub?


    Ezekiel 28:9-10 (RSV)
    9 Will you still say, `I am a god,' in the presence of those who slay you, though you are but a man, and no god, in the hands of those who wound you?
    10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD."
     
  14. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    When Jesus said the Law may not be changed, do you say the new covenant changes the Law; these matters we are discussing are nothing, but if we gamble our salvation on interpretations of scripture that is something.
     
  15. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    Who said anything about "gambling my salvation"?
    We weren't even discussing salvation.
     
  16. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The book of Ezekiel was to be taken to the house of Israel not the house of Judah although it is relevant to all. So King Tyrus is representative of Israel; Should Ezek 28:14-15, describe Satan then it is Israel who is being called Satan; unless they repent always is implied; it is with the lost sheep of Israel with whom the new covenant is made.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
  17. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Obviously I was arguing against something you said, the thread is "Way do people hate the SDA", and they (SDA) are hated because of their keeping or purporting to keep the Law of God.

    In as far as the Law may be abrogated, there in no scriptural authority for doing so. There many arguments against the wrong usage of the Law; many then proceed to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In the matter of the Law or not the Law, those who practise the Law in the manner God intended, should they be wrong will loose nothing; but those who abrogate the Law, should they be wrong they loose every thing; there is a gamble.

    Seems like I forgot what thread I was on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
  18. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I do not see any harm coming from believing Jesus was Michael, even if wrong, unless it lead to influencing other interpretations; there is much that is unknown and we are allowed to speculate about that; but it is foolish to form doctrine from such speculation; there are other matters where error can cost salvation
     
  19. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I haven't commented on the thread "Why do people hate the SDA?"
     
  20. sparow

    sparow Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This thread grew out of the other thread; believing Jesus and Michael was a reason given for people hating the SDA., I thought.
     
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