Surely you must have some 'ideas', some suspects... after all, you mentioned Quranic history, which is not exactly a small subject.
Upvote
0
Jesus is God says Koran...
- Thread starter ApplePie7
- Start date
- Status
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
I like the way you evade my question.So you say that Christians 'authored' the Quran and you made a blasphemous remark that the Quran says 'Jesus was God'. So, which Christians say or wrote such thing?
Upvote
0
So you say that Christians 'authored' the Quran and you made a blasphemous remark that the Quran says 'Jesus was God'. So, which Christians say or wrote such thing?
No one autographed the Koran.
Not even the so-called "prophet Muhammad" is mentioned anywhere in the Koran as having anything at all to do with it.
Thus, the answer must come from the text itself, as to who authored it.
Please tell us...would a Muslim plainly state in the classic Arabic that Jesus is God?
Would a Jew?
Upvote
0
Special pleading... you have absolutely no proof that Christians authored the Quran and suddenly turn to other allegations hoping that the readers would forget my main question: "Who were the Christians who authored the Quran"?
Upvote
0
HumbleSiPilot77
Senior Contributor
- Jan 4, 2003
- 10,040
- 421
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Sceptical, have you ever pondered why Muhammad stayed monogamous for 25 some years? Have you heard about his first wife's cousin Waraqa Ibn Nawfal?
He was also one of the four hanifs mentioned by Ibn Ishaq in his biography of Muhammad.
Ibn Ishaq relates (as it appears in ibn Hisham's recension):
Now, I am not saying Waraqa is the author but his influence is undeniable on the family.
Narrated 'Aisha: Sahih Bukhari volume 1, Book 1, Number 3
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.
Narrated 'Aisha: Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, book 87, number 111
Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father's brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, "O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew." Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" The Prophet described whatever he had seen.
Waraqa said, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down,
According to Fr. Louis Shikho , "The Nasara among pre-Islamic Arabs", more on the influence;
The Quran does talk about "nasara" in Arabic. Some authors think that the word designates CHRISTIANS, without any further details. Others, struck by the strange beliefs attributed to the "nasara" by the Quran, think that "NASARA" designates Jewish Christian sects, especially Ebionites, Gnostics, Nazarenes who - either coming ethnically from a Jewish extraction or "converted" to such sects (like Waraqah bin Nawfal according to Ibn Hisham).
In fact, the Quran seems to describe the "nasara" as:
1- holding both the Torah of Moses (Musa) and the Injil of Isa (Gospel of Jesus)
2- believing only in "the Injil", the one and only Gospel, apparently the "Evangelium juxta Hebraeos"
3- of Hebrew or Aramaic Gospel attributed to Matthew,
4- by the Ebionites.
5- forbidding to eat pork; perhaps keeping also the sabbath, but probably circumcision.
6- denying the divinity of Christ (other times, both the Quran and the nasara seem to affirm it).
The Ebionites had both streams.
OTHER scholars say that those "nasara" were NON-Chalcedonian Christians like Jacobites, nestorians, monophysists - respectively denying the humanity of Christ, the two natures in Him.
The authors who think that the "NASARA" of the Quran designates more or less and/or pseudo Christian sects especially of Jewish origin and affiliation, believe that Christians children of the Church , in our Christian Orthodoxy, are called "RUUM" ÉϘ (Byzantines) by the Quran. It is risky to affirm categorically that "Islam" underwent the influence of this or that sect, however it seems likely that:
1- the Quran denied the divinity of Christ due to ebionite and arian influence.
2- the Quran confused between divinity and humanity of Christ due to the nestorian influence.
3- the Quran denied the crucifixion of Christ due to the gnostic docetes who claimed that Jesus had only the appearance of a body, cf. the apocryphal (or pseudepigraphic) Gospel of Peter.
4- the Quran criticized "Christians" for believing in three gods: Allah, Isa and Mary - perhaps due to the existence of a "marianistic" heresy.
Basic references about the various sects and heresies in the early Church : St. Iraeneus : "Adversus Haereses" St. Epiphanus, Bishop of Salamina (Cyprus): "The Panarion" (All the schisms).
He was also one of the four hanifs mentioned by Ibn Ishaq in his biography of Muhammad.
Ibn Ishaq relates (as it appears in ibn Hisham's recension):
Waraqa attached himself to Christianity and studied its scriptures until he had thoroughly mastered them."
(Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, 1967, p. 99)
This means that the scriptures were uncorrupted during his time. It is said that when Muhammad received his first visions, Khadija came to consult him. Muslims have claimed that Waraqa represents the pure, uncorrupted form of Christianity, and who deny the Christian Trinity. However, there is no evidence that Waraqa was a Unitarian Christian. In fact, historical evidence appears to contradict this. The churches in the Arabian peninsula were either in communion with the Monophysitic Church in Egypt or the Nestorian Church in Constatinople (and these two had long been in antagonistic relationships). Both branches believe that Jesus was divinely God; they differed in how the human and divine natures of Jesus interacted when He was man on this earth. The Qur'anic teaching are more in line with the Nestorian teaching.(Ibn Ishaq, Life of Muhammad, tr. Guillaume, 1967, p. 99)
Now, I am not saying Waraqa is the author but his influence is undeniable on the family.
Narrated 'Aisha: Sahih Bukhari volume 1, Book 1, Number 3
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died.
Narrated 'Aisha: Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, book 87, number 111
Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Nawfal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father's brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, "O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew." Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" The Prophet described whatever he had seen.
Waraqa said, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down,
According to Fr. Louis Shikho , "The Nasara among pre-Islamic Arabs", more on the influence;
The Quran does talk about "nasara" in Arabic. Some authors think that the word designates CHRISTIANS, without any further details. Others, struck by the strange beliefs attributed to the "nasara" by the Quran, think that "NASARA" designates Jewish Christian sects, especially Ebionites, Gnostics, Nazarenes who - either coming ethnically from a Jewish extraction or "converted" to such sects (like Waraqah bin Nawfal according to Ibn Hisham).
In fact, the Quran seems to describe the "nasara" as:
1- holding both the Torah of Moses (Musa) and the Injil of Isa (Gospel of Jesus)
2- believing only in "the Injil", the one and only Gospel, apparently the "Evangelium juxta Hebraeos"
3- of Hebrew or Aramaic Gospel attributed to Matthew,
4- by the Ebionites.
5- forbidding to eat pork; perhaps keeping also the sabbath, but probably circumcision.
6- denying the divinity of Christ (other times, both the Quran and the nasara seem to affirm it).
The Ebionites had both streams.
OTHER scholars say that those "nasara" were NON-Chalcedonian Christians like Jacobites, nestorians, monophysists - respectively denying the humanity of Christ, the two natures in Him.
The authors who think that the "NASARA" of the Quran designates more or less and/or pseudo Christian sects especially of Jewish origin and affiliation, believe that Christians children of the Church , in our Christian Orthodoxy, are called "RUUM" ÉϘ (Byzantines) by the Quran. It is risky to affirm categorically that "Islam" underwent the influence of this or that sect, however it seems likely that:
1- the Quran denied the divinity of Christ due to ebionite and arian influence.
2- the Quran confused between divinity and humanity of Christ due to the nestorian influence.
3- the Quran denied the crucifixion of Christ due to the gnostic docetes who claimed that Jesus had only the appearance of a body, cf. the apocryphal (or pseudepigraphic) Gospel of Peter.
4- the Quran criticized "Christians" for believing in three gods: Allah, Isa and Mary - perhaps due to the existence of a "marianistic" heresy.
Basic references about the various sects and heresies in the early Church : St. Iraeneus : "Adversus Haereses" St. Epiphanus, Bishop of Salamina (Cyprus): "The Panarion" (All the schisms).
Upvote
0
Yes, Waraqa ibn Nawfal was a Christian, although we can agree which denomination he belonged to. Since you are saying Waraqa was not the author, we shall leave it to that.
You gave me a few 'suspects'. Care to name these 'Christians'?
Upvote
0
The Koran itself is proof that Christians penned the text.
Several examples have already been given declaring that Jesus Christ is God. If you deny this, then let's go over the Arabic word by word together....yes?
Thus...again...ask yourself these important questions:
1) Would a Jew or Muslim Koranic author state that Jesus is God?
2) Would a Jew or Muslim author state that Jesus was crucified until death upon the cross, and then resurrected on the third day?
Be honest with yourself...
Upvote
0
HumbleSiPilot77
Senior Contributor
- Jan 4, 2003
- 10,040
- 421
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
He actually has all the proof... Your prophet said "How will you be when the son of Mary (Jesus) descends amongst you?" His second coming... For Christians at the time in Asia Minor, these were old news.
There is so much proof of Scriptural borrowing in the Quran, it is undeniable.
Now by asking the person names, what are you trying to achieve, answer that question... Is that somehow going to remove the problem of borrowing in th Quran? If Applepie said, I do not know the names, is that going to mean, there was no Christian heresy involved in Quran? Your answer is a BIG NO!
So kindly stop beating around the bush and focus on the real problem, not details.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
HumbleSiPilot77
Senior Contributor
- Jan 4, 2003
- 10,040
- 421
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Eastern Orthodox
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
ApplePie, I recently met an arabic linguist in Iraq and he is a coptic Orthodox Christian from Egypt. Him and I quickly engaged in deep conversation about the roots of islam as he was interested I was an apostate of Islam and man is he a goldmine of knowledge, he agrees with your conclusions, could I possibly put you in contact with him?
Upvote
0
What proof? You cannot even name the author of the Quran. And you want us Muslims to believe in your opinion?
I am being honest. This is not a small matter to Muslims. You made wild allegations and you suddenly got stuck in your track when I challenge you for the source.
In fact, I should throw the question back at you. If you are honest with yourself, gave us proof that Christians wrote the Quran.
Upvote
0
Aha... now Apple Pie claimed the Quran was written by Christians. You claimed the Quran was written by Christian heretics? Who should we listen to?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Upvote
0
Upvote
0
How is that 'proof' that Christians wrote the Quran?
Is that 'borrowing' or 'parallelism' of stories? Same stories told to different people from the same source?
Well, if Apple Pie has the names, I certainly would be interested in his stories. The world certainly would change, wouldn't you agree. At this stage, his opinion is purely that... OPINION, complemented by his religious obligation to discredit Islam.
You want to change things without proof and details?
Upvote
0
No name is given in the pages of the Koran as to who is responsible for the text.
You will not even find "Muhammad" as claiming responsibility for the text....especially since "Muhammad" was not even a proper name at the time the Koran was penned....and yet, as a Muslim, you probably adhere to this islamic propaganda without a single shred of evidence...yes...?
The source material is the classic Arabic of your book of faith.
What's the matter...are you afraid to go over it with us...?
Several examples have already been given, complete with the "original" Arabic....you choose to look the other way...
Here's another special ayah for you to consider its source...
فصل لربك وانحر
Fasalli lirabbika wainhar
108.2 So you pray to your Lord and Sacrifice.
How is it that your Lord is a Sacrifice...?
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
OK. Hence, you were trying to be clever and said the Quran was written by Christians? Which Christians?
How could that suddenly imply the Quran was written by Christians?
Upvote
0
- Status
Similar threads
