Jesus Is Allah ?

[Heathen Dawn]

and u believe it to be the truth..but i KNOW i have the truth

Congratulations, you win the Arrogance Prize of the day.

May it have occured to you it’s the other way round? That is, that you believe you have the truth, but Havoc KNOWS he/she has the truth? On what grounds do you make that arrogant statement of yours?

 

[Carico]

If there is only one God, Nasir, as the Jews, Muslims, and Christians claim, either Christians are right and the Jews and Muslims are wrong, or the Muslims and Jews are right and the Christians are wrong. Jesus said that He is the only way to the one true God. Muslims and Jews think they have the way to the one true God. How can the Muslims and Jews connect to the one true God? Through worldly things like letters on the wailing wall or kneeling on the ground toward a worldly mosque? Are the mosques and the wailing wall God, or are they simply man-made structures?In Christianity, people connect to God through the Holy Spirit which is not from man. Christians don't need temples, mosques and walls to connect to God because they have a connection through the spirit. The spirit of God lives inside them so they know who God is. How can man made images connect people to God?

 

[nasir_abdus-salam]

It's my pleasure to join the conversation, Brain Damage. Why do Muslims say we worship the same God as Christians? That's a good question, and there are a number of different answers.

To begin, historically, not all Christians have agreed on the nature of Jesus (peace be upon him). For those Christians who reject the concept of God-incarnate, then there's no question as to whether we worship the same God. The answer is yes.

As for those who belief in the Trinity, obviously, there are major differences. Theoretically, it can be said that Muslims believe in only the Father. Another way to look at it is: both Muslims and Christians acknowledge the existence of the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. We believe that Allah is indivisible, while Christians believe that He (Glory to Him!) incarnated Himself. So, what we have is a disagreement on the nature of Allah (indivisible vs. incarnate). Whether this is grounds for saying we worship completely different "gods", is a very sticky issue.

Attributing divisibility to God is considered blashphemy. However, the Qur'an does make a distinction between pagans and Christians, and it is permissible for a man to marry a Christian woman (whereas it is forbidden for me to marry a Hindu, Buddhist, etc.). The Qur'an also praises good Christians and monks, affirming the salvation of those who followed Jesus (peace be upon him) before the advent of Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him). The truths within Christianity must be acknowledged by Muslims because you follow one of the prophets (the same idea is applicable to Jews because they follow Moses [peace be upon him]). So, there's definitely some common ground between us, in spite of the Christian deification of Jesus (peace be upon him). Though I feel this deification is blasphemy, it would be out of line for me to compare you with a pagan.

So really, (and forgive me for this ambiguity) the answer to your question (as regards Trinity-believing Christians) is both yes and no. That's probably not what you were looking for, but that's the only way it can be articulated.

 

[nasir_abdus-salam]

Simply put, Carico, we connect to God by going to Him. And no, my connection isn't through anything material (which would be totally adverse to Islam). When we prostrate in mosques, we're praying. Of course the mosque isn't God; it's a building (LOL). I don't need that building either, Carico. A mosque is just a place of worship, not the object of worship - it could be a bedroom floor, a paved street, a field, whatever. Islam is staunchly iconoclastic, so why you're asking me about images, I don't understand.

 

[Brain Damage]

If there is only one God, Nasir, as the Jews, Muslims, and Christians claim, either Christians are right and the Jews and Muslims are wrong, or the Muslims and Jews are right and the Christians are wrong. Jesus said that He is the only way to the one true God. Muslims and Jews think they have the way to the one true God. How can the Muslims and Jews connect to the one true God? Through worldly things like letters on the wailing wall or kneeling on the ground toward a worldly mosque? Are the mosques and the wailing wall God, or are they simply man-made structures?In Christianity, people connect to God through the Holy Spirit which is not from man. Christians don't need temples, mosques and walls to connect to God because they have a connection through the spirit. The spirit of God lives inside them so they know who God is. How can man made images connect people to God?

Good post Carico.

 

[Havoc]

No the Qur'an is not the truth to Christians or to jews, or to hindus etc..and u dont need outside sources to prove the bible if u r a true believer..and this nothing more than a claim..is a ignorant comment..we have One of the original bible from 104AD in the Vatican archives and then we have the all the early Church fathers that support it, and believe it..and then we have GOD who inspired us!

Its good u have ur own spirituality and u believe it to be the truth..but i KNOW i have the truth

Without substantive external evidence of the Bibles veracity you don't have proof... you have belief. I suggest you look up the words in a dictionary since you apparently are confusing the two.

I appreciate that you know you have the truth. People know things all the time and are completely mistaken. All that your claim of knowing means is that you have been convinced... IOW you believe it. It doesn't prove your claim is reasonable or valid in any fashion at all.

 

[MorphRC]

Congratulations, you win the Arrogance Prize of the day.

May it have occured to you it’s the other way round? That is, that you believe you have the truth, but Havoc KNOWS he/she has the truth? On what grounds do you make that arrogant statement of yours?

If you call knowledge and belief arrogance then i win

 

[MorphRC]

Without substantive external evidence of the Bibles veracity you don't have proof... you have belief. I suggest you look up the words in a dictionary since you apparently are confusing the two.

I appreciate that you know you have the truth. People know things all the time and are completely mistaken. All that your claim of knowing means is that you have been convinced... IOW you believe it. It doesn't prove your claim is reasonable or valid in any fashion at all.

I never said belief proves the truth. I said it proves it TO ME!

I know i am not mistaken no matter how much ud love me to be..

 

[dlamberth]

Is Jesus, Allah? I’d have to say…not a chance!

But than I’d have to ask: Is that whom Jesus prayed to the same as to whom Abraham prayed to? IMO, I’d have to answer that question with a resounding, YES!!

To take the question to the next logical level: Is that whom Muhammad prayed to the same as to whom Jesus and Abraham prayed to? Again, IMO, I have to answer with a resounding, YES!!

...

 

[Nathan Poe]

Ok so Jesus is the God of the christians but he is not the God of the muslims , so why do muslims continue to say that we have the same God when it seems obvious that we don't have the same God ( Jesus ) as you have already stated ?

Hmmm? makes perfect sense to me, and I don't believe any of it.

Jesus is "God" insofar as he is one part of the Trinity. He is also the "Son of God," implying some sort of separate entity...

Now, how Jesus can simultaneously be God and the Son of God, as exemplified in his own words, "I and my Father are one," (John 10:30) bends logic to its breaking point, but that's another issue.

The point is that Muslims do not believe in the Trinity. God The Father of Christianity and Allah are more or less the same God, AFAIK.

Islam sees Christ as a prophet, but not "the Son of God," and certainly not as God in human form. The Bible says he is, but Muslims see the Bible as having been corrupted, and the Qur'an as an accurate "corrected" if you will, text.

Of course, I'm working from memory here; My college World Religions class was a long time ago...

Nasir can certianly correct me if I'm wrong, and probably explain it better tha nme anyway.

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Nathan Poe

Jesus is "God" insofar as he is one part of the Trinity. He is also the "Son of God," implying some sort of separate entity...

Just to clear up a notion: Trinity is a concept - not a fact. It is possible for God and Jesus to be one. This doesn't have to be a physical issue as much as it is a spiritual one. It is more conceiveable for several entities to be in a spiritual oneness. Oneness in essence means oneness of purpose: i.e., we are on the same accord and we are commited to the same thing regardless.

Now, how Jesus can simultaneously be God and the Son of God, as exemplified in his own words, "I and my Father are one," (John 10:30) bends logic to its breaking point, but that's another issue.

Yes it does bend logic when you wear a pair of intellectual goggles, as most nonChristians do and even some Christians do. Just to enlighten you, the Bible does require you to think a little bit. It is not like reading a Sports Illustrated.

In order to understand the Bible, one has to be spiritually inclined. Your inclination can only come with a desire to understand it - not merely finding verses to support something you like or dislike. Whether you see it or not, these very seemingly contradicory verses are actually sorting people out every minute of the day. Most of it is because they expect a god that they will be able to comprehend, so that they can ultimately control. He is now in a box that they can put the lid on any time they need to.

Truthfully, God does not owe us any explanation for who he is and for what He does, as long as it does not violate His spoken and written words to us. In God's realm, the Aristotelian logic goes out of the window. Yes, 2 or more things can simultaneoulsly exist as the same thing and also, not be the same thing at the same time. Translated: entity A can be entity B and not entity B all at the same time.

The point is that Muslims do not believe in the Trinity. God The Father of Christianity and Allah are more or less the same God, AFAIK.

They too suffer from an overdose of Aristotelian logic.

Islam sees Christ as a prophet, but not "the Son of God," and certainly not as God in human form. The Bible says he is, but Muslims see the Bible as having been corrupted, and the Qur'an as an accurate "corrected" if you will, text.

Of course, I'm working from memory here; My college World Religions class was a long time ago...

Nasir can certianly correct me if I'm wrong, and probably explain it better tha nme anyway.

That seems to be what the situation is as accurately as I can see.

 

[Nathan Poe]

originally posted by Nathan Poe



Just to clear up a notion: Trinity is a concept - not a fact. It is possible for God and Jesus to be one. This doesn't have to be a physical issue as much as it is a spiritual one. It is more conceiveable for several entities to be in a spiritual oneness. Oneness in essence means oneness of purpose: i.e., we are on the same accord and we are commited to the same thing regardless.

Spiritually, we could all be "one," but that's not quite what the Tirinity implies...

Yes it does bend logic when you wear a pair of intellectual goggles, as most nonChristians do and even some Christians do. Just to enlighten you, the Bible does require you to think a little bit. It is not like reading a Sports Illustrated.

In this I agree wholeheartedly: The Bible does not require thinking. In fact, it tends to discourage it. Nowhere in the Bible is intelligence praised as a virtue.

In order to understand the Bible, one has to be spiritually inclined. Your inclination can only come with a desire to understand it - not merely finding verses to support something you like or dislike.

I've known some self-professed "Christians" who could stand to hear this advice.

Whether you see it or not, these very seemingly contradicory verses are actually sorting people out every minute of the day. Most of it is because they expect a god that they will be able to comprehend, so that they can ultimately control. He is now in a box that they can put the lid on any time they need to.

Control God? A bit of a slippery slope, don't you think?
The alternative is blind, unquestioning obedience: Totally unacceptable.

Truthfully, God does not owe us any explanation for who he is and for what He does, as long as it does not violate His spoken and written words to us. In God's realm, the Aristotelian logic goes out of the window. Yes, 2 or more things can simultaneoulsly exist as the same thing and also, not be the same thing at the same time. Translated: entity A can be entity B and not entity B all at the same time.

"He's God; We're not. He commands; we are to obey. So shut your mouth and do as you're told."

People tend to reject this rationale as being the foulest form of tyranny.

They too suffer from an overdose of Aristotelian logic.

You say that as if it were a bad thing.

Well, Aristotle was a favored philosopher of the Islamic world in the middle ages. In fact most of what we have of Aristotle was preserved by the Arabs and resoted to Europe during the Renaissance.

That seems to be what the situation is as accurately as I can see.

I think Nasir can clear it up better than either of us...

 

[Carico]

If the Muslims to need mosques in order to worship Allah, then why do they HAVE to pray to Allah several times a day? What happens is they don't? How are their sins taken away?

 

[nasir_abdus-salam]

I've never suffered from using logic, Aristotelian or otherwise (LOL). True, God does not owe us an explanation of who He is or why He does what He does, but at the same time, He would not create us with intellect only to have us discard it on the most important matter of our lives (i.e., knowing Him).

Throughout the Qur'an, logical reflection is highly encouraged. God could have made us as just another animal, but He didn't. We're homo sapiens, and it is that sapiential quality that God tells us we should praise Him for.

Carico, the Arabic word for mosque is masjid, which literally means "place of prostration." If I were to pray on the moon, it would be a masjid. The physical place of worship has absolutely nothing to do with the reason there are five obligatory prayers. The two-second answer as to why we must pray five times daily is just because God commands it. If we fail to comply then there is punishment in the Hereafter. Sins are "taken away" (by "taken away" I assume you mean forgiven) by God.

From now on, please post any questions or comments about Islam on the new thread I started. I'm willing to teach if you're willing to learn (wishful thinking at its pinnacle), but no silliness, I beg of you.

 

[DCP 32° K.T]

...but that's not quite what the Tirinity implies...

Yeah, but which one? Eastern? Western? Sabellianist? Other?

 

[Brain Damage]

Is Jesus, Allah? I’d have to say…not a chance!

But than I’d have to ask: Is that whom Jesus prayed to the same as to whom Abraham prayed to? IMO, I’d have to answer that question with a resounding, YES!!

To take the question to the next logical level: Is that whom Muhammad prayed to the same as to whom Jesus and Abraham prayed to? Again, IMO, I have to answer with a resounding, YES!!

...

When Abraham was praying to God , he was actualy praying to Jesus.

John 8:57 - Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

John 14:7 - "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

And so if a muslim says we have the same God then he is saying that Jesus is his God also.

 

[MorphRC]

The Trinity is a concept not a fact? hmm..According to..???

Last time i checked the Church has always held that the trinity is a fact and has strong biblical evidence

 

[MorphRC]

As for is Jesus Allah..not in Islamic theology..In Christian theology technically He is..

 

[Brain Damage]

As for is Jesus Allah..not in Islamic theology..In Christian theology technically He is..

No he's not , christians don't believe Jesus was Allah who sent forth the angel Gabriel to give revelations to Mohammad.

If we believed that , then we would all be muslims.

 

[MorphRC]

No he's not , christians don't believe Jesus was Allah who sent forth the angel Gabriel to give revelations to Mohammad.

If we believed that , then we would all be muslims.

OYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

Jesus is God..is He not?

Ill answer it Yes..

oy i give up..think what u want!..