Jesus is a God of conditional Love, not unconditional love. (3)

[razzelflabben]

My deepest apologies to razzelflabben, I am pleased with how you have maintained the original topic, I am sorry to sidetrack it, but, I mearly wanted to show the one of which you are trying to understand love, cannot feel love since he has not felt love, the love of Christ.

No problem....I would like to say this however, love, real love is beyond our understanding, beyond our capacity to grasp. Our emotional connections that we see as love are pale attempts to feel value that only God can give.

Let me put this another way and see if it makes more sense. We are hard wired as people to "need" to feel valued, to need unconditional love, to need to be loved. It's who we are as a people. Many years ago (many many years ago) they did a study in which they took orphan babies, each was equally healthy. One group was fed and changed and kept clean. The other group was fed, changed, kept clean through contact and affectionate interaction. The group who were "shown love" thrived, while the group that did not get this attention did not. Scripture tells us that all men desire unconditional love (presented the passage can look it up again if need be). Anyway, it's who we are, we obtain our value from the love that is given us. But love isn't just an emotion, so love comes to us in a host of different ways. In fact, I was able to identify 11 pictures of love in scripture, these are like snapshots of what love looks like, or examples that we can identify with.

Anyway, back to the point. Real love returns to us the love value or love worth that the world strips from us. You see, the world tells us we are not loved, that we have no real worth. The world tells us that all love is conditional, that real worth is measured in things. The world tells us that we can strive our entire lives and still, in the end, be nothing more than dust, a fleeting breath. Real love restores to us a value, a worth beyond anything we can imagine. It gives back to us the value of who we are because it is using us for the purpose we were created, to know and receive unconditional love. When God reaches down and touches our lives and loves us, we find that we once again have value and worth. The point being this, the real value of love is not that we feel it, or that we have an emotional connection to it, but the real value of love is that it restores us to our original createdness, our original purpose. Real love gives us an identity, a worth, a value so great that our minds and hearts cannot conceive it.

Just some thoughts, I do so love the topic of God's amazing love.

 

[ozell]

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[ozell]

Matthew 24


1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[razzelflabben]

Romans 13:10
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

I thought love was obeying commands, so now, we have you offering two different definitions for love????? How is that????

 

[groktruth]

No problem....I would like to say this however, love, real love is beyond our understanding, beyond our capacity to grasp. Our emotional connections that we see as love are pale attempts to feel value that only God can give.

Let me put this another way and see if it makes more sense. We are hard wired as people to "need" to feel valued, to need unconditional love, to need to be loved. It's who we are as a people. Many years ago (many many years ago) they did a study in which they took orphan babies, each was equally healthy. One group was fed and changed and kept clean. The other group was fed, changed, kept clean through contact and affectionate interaction. The group who were "shown love" thrived, while the group that did not get this attention did not. Scripture tells us that all men desire unconditional love (presented the passage can look it up again if need be). Anyway, it's who we are, we obtain our value from the love that is given us. But love isn't just an emotion, so love comes to us in a host of different ways. In fact, I was able to identify 11 pictures of love in scripture, these are like snapshots of what love looks like, or examples that we can identify with.

Anyway, back to the point. Real love returns to us the love value or love worth that the world strips from us. You see, the world tells us we are not loved, that we have no real worth. The world tells us that all love is conditional, that real worth is measured in things. The world tells us that we can strive our entire lives and still, in the end, be nothing more than dust, a fleeting breath. Real love restores to us a value, a worth beyond anything we can imagine. It gives back to us the value of who we are because it is using us for the purpose we were created, to know and receive unconditional love. When God reaches down and touches our lives and loves us, we find that we once again have value and worth. The point being this, the real value of love is not that we feel it, or that we have an emotional connection to it, but the real value of love is that it restores us to our original createdness, our original purpose. Real love gives us an identity, a worth, a value so great that our minds and hearts cannot conceive it.

Just some thoughts, I do so love the topic of God's amazing love.

Inspired!

 

[groktruth]

Ozell, you speak the truth plainly. I hope to walk in the same glory as you. I seem to be able to fake the outward act, but when I get past the show and look at my heart I find things that I thought I repented of still lingering. I repented of smoking 6 yrs. ago and at times the same desire to smoke is still there. I'm not saying walking in sin is ok, what I'm saying is titheing cumin and mint still isn't giving your all.

When we repent of not keeping the commandments, we turn to the commandments, to see what we have not been doing as they ought to be done. There we find the first commandment that Jesus gave, "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand." So, we begin by repenting of not repenting as we ought.

What does this mean? Jesus came after John the Baptist had preached, "Prepare ye the way of the Lord." So, there is some preparation, and there is some "way," some pathway of repentence. Our first task, if we are going to do a better job of repenting, is finding out how to be better prepared, and what the steps of the pathway are.

Challenging, but "the kingdom of God is at hand." So, we ask God for wisdom, direction, understanding of these matters. Then we do whatever we know to do to get the answers we seek. (a car is easier to steer when it is moving). Ask questions of older, wiser friends, for example. Read in the scriptures, looking up some of the words we are wondering about.

Do these things, and I will be very surprised if you do not find amazing things happening to you.

 

[razzelflabben]

My husband and I just ran to get milk. As we talked, God showed me something so beautiful and so full of wonderment that I wanted to share it with you all.

I've been thinking much about Love, our son, and things. We just talked about how love is about value not emotion, but let's take it one step further. Scripture tells us that 1. love never fails and 2. these three remain, (faith, hope and love) but the greatest of these is love. When we combine both of these truths, we begin to see that faith, changes in eternity, as does hope, but what does not change is love, in fact, love is so stable, so unconditional, so wonderful, that love is the only thing in this world that we can take with us when we die. We enter this world with love, we choose to live in that love or not, and when we die, the only thing we can take with us, is love. It is eternal, it is constant, it goes with us into eternity, and there, we dwell in that love (believers) Love is the only thing in this world that we can take with us.

 

[groktruth]

My husband and I just ran to get milk. As we talked, God showed me something so beautiful and so full of wonderment that I wanted to share it with you all.

I've been thinking much about Love, our son, and things. We just talked about how love is about value not emotion, but let's take it one step further. Scripture tells us that 1. love never fails and 2. these three remain, (faith, hope and love) but the greatest of these is love. When we combine both of these truths, we begin to see that faith, changes in eternity, as does hope, but what does not change is love, in fact, love is so stable, so unconditional, so wonderful, that love is the only thing in this world that we can take with us when we die. We enter this world with love, we choose to live in that love or not, and when we die, the only thing we can take with us, is love. It is eternal, it is constant, it goes with us into eternity, and there, we dwell in that love (believers) Love is the only thing in this world that we can take with us.

The idea of love being "keeping the commandments" then connects something mysterious and precious to something tangible and accessible. We can be about commandment keeping, but that choice results in something called love, that, yes includes the commandment keeping, but makes something wonderfful out of all the commandments to love. You get more than you asked, even hoped, for.

Thanks, again.

 

[razzelflabben]

The idea of love being "keeping the commandments" then connects something mysterious and precious to something tangible and accessible. We can be about commandment keeping, but that choice results in something called love, that, yes includes the commandment keeping, but makes something wonderfful out of all the commandments to love. You get more than you asked, even hoped, for.

Thanks, again.

AMEN, which is why scripture tells us that fathoming love is beyond knowledge. In ourselves, we can't begin to fathom all the mysteries and wonders of love, in our physical form, we can't contain all that love has for us. Isn't God's wisdom and love amazing!!!!

now for a few private moments to cry, the stone is in place. It's a hard, hard day in razzelflabben's household.

 

[ozell]

Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.


Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

[ozell]

Psalm 15


1Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?

2He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.

3He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

4In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved

God is love but he also has condtions on who he loves, his eyes have contemned for a vile person!

 

[ozell]

a vile person worketh iniquity in his heart

Isaiah 32:6
For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

The Lord hates all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.


even those who work iniquity in the heart(mind)

 

[razzelflabben]

Psalm 15


1Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell in thy holy hill?

2He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.

3He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour.

4In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.
5He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved

God is love but he also has condtions on who he loves, his eyes have contemned for a vile person!

there are no conditions for who HE loves, only conditions for dwelling in that love, which includes but is not limited to salvation. A point in scripture you keep missing...how is that possible if you base your beliefs on scripture?

 

[ozell]

there are no conditions for who HE loves, only conditions for dwelling in that love, which includes but is not limited to salvation. A point in scripture you keep missing...how is that possible if you base your beliefs on scripture?

who is the he in these verses'


Isaiah 32:6
For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

The Lord hates all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

the vile person
the worker of iniquity


who does these things? people don't dwell in his love.
Proverbs 6


16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

 

[razzelflabben]

who is the he in these verses'


Isaiah 32:6
For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

The Lord hates all workers of iniquity.

it says hate, not lack of love...we talked about the difference in some detail.

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

the vile person
the worker of iniquity


who does these things? people don't dwell in his love.
Proverbs 6


16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

again, we spent a lot of time on the passage that tells us how to dwell in His love, now, you throw out that scripture so you can claim otherwise and call it scriptureal....God does without doubt hate these things, but hate and love are not opposites and like it or not, we can dwell in God's love, the bible says we can.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ozell, it appears that your entire theology is built around the lies you have convinced yourself of about love. For example, that love and hate are opposites, or that justice and judgment are not part of love. These lies are clouding your mind and blinding your eyes to the truth God has for you about His amazing love. Shed yourself of the lies and hold to only the truth and there, stand in amazement of all that God wants to show you and give to you.

 

[Light hearted]

a vile person worketh iniquity in his heart

Isaiah 32:6
For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practise hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.

The Lord hates all workers of iniquity.

Psalm 5:5
The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.


even those who work iniquity in the heart(mind)

All of us who are saved realize these very passages. We realized our very short comings. Why keep posting terms of salvation, the reason we need a savior. Until you come to terms that you fall way short of God's righteousness, you can't even reach the point of salvation, let alone experience God's love for you. Not to mention, understand the price HE already paid for you to experience the love of Christ.

Everything in the verse you posted was me, bulls eye. According to you I should be condemned forever, I was against God, I'm headed straight to hell.

You never ever post his mercy, his forgiveness, his love, his sacrifice. He knocked on my heart, after time I answered. He did all the work, he created the way, Jesus hung with his arms wide open, how much more invitation does one need.

Sum things up. His love was always there, I, a sinner, just had to accept and walk through the door.

He put no conditions such as a scavenger hunt that I had to do first, nope, just accept.

Your logic is backwards, truth is, it is because I was a sinner, I was the perfect candidate. Your logic, correct me if I'm wrong, is that because I was a sinner, God would reject me.

Could you tell which is your logic, or if you have other logic, we'd be glad to hear it.

 

[groktruth]

AMEN, which is why scripture tells us that fathoming love is beyond knowledge. In ourselves, we can't begin to fathom all the mysteries and wonders of love, in our physical form, we can't contain all that love has for us. Isn't God's wisdom and love amazing!!!!

now for a few private moments to cry, the stone is in place. It's a hard, hard day in razzelflabben's household.

I am inclined to pray, for "all men," but especially for those who weep, for an older, wiser shoulder to cry on. If this is your hope, I invite you to join with me. It is written that commandment keepers "abide in (His) love," a place from which they may ask "whatever they wish, and He will do it." It is the best I can do, so far, with "Weep with those who weep." But, when prayer is the least we can do, we're in a good place.

 

[Christownsme]

What is God's desire, most importantly? To love or to reject? Once was a time when God would not extend His Spirit to all men. During this time grace wasn't poured out like it is today. Today grace is abundant and the Holy Spirit is abundant in the believer.

Grace is available to all. Yes or No? How did grace become available to all? By the death and sacrifice, yes the resurrection showed the grace that was mysterious to the prophets of old. How again? Through Jesus Christ. His visible glory and grace and truth made it possible for man, all mankind, vile sinner and so-called good people alike to see the Gospel as a walking Man.

Through Jesus' redemptive work on the cross, we crossed into the rightly dividing of the word, the age of abundant grace, where God showed His initial and most important desire to love all humans.

Simple truth of the matter - if you aren't covered with the blood of Jesus, the love of God doesn't make sense. It seems too far fetched or maybe all you see is wrath. But once you make a decision to follow Christ, He opens your eyes to the love that was always there, covered up by sin and rebellion, but mostly the resistance to bow to Christ. This love God has is for all mankind, sinner and saint alike. If not, God wouldn't have given up His Son on the cross to take care of everyone but the ones "God hateth the soul who doeth iniquity." Give me a break. Anyone who breaks the least of the commandments has committed iniquity worthy of God hating you. That's everybody! All have sinned. So how do you think one is to be saved? So well put, "Believe in the name of Jesus Christ and you and your household will be saved." So simple. Why make it hard?


source - Lamentations, Acts, Psalms, John, Romans, the whole Bible.

 

[ozell]

All of us who are saved realize these very passages. We realized our very short comings. Why keep posting terms of salvation, the reason we need a savior. Until you come to terms that you fall way short of God's righteousness, you can't even reach the point of salvation, let alone experience God's love for you. Not to mention, understand the price HE already paid for you to experience the love of Christ.

Everything in the verse you posted was me, bulls eye. According to you I should be condemned forever, I was against God, I'm headed straight to hell.

You never ever post his mercy, his forgiveness, his love, his sacrifice. He knocked on my heart, after time I answered. He did all the work, he created the way, Jesus hung with his arms wide open, how much more invitation does one need.

Sum things up. His love was always there, I, a sinner, just had to accept and walk through the door.

He put no conditions such as a scavenger hunt that I had to do first, nope, just accept.

Your logic is backwards, truth is, it is because I was a sinner, I was the perfect candidate. Your logic, correct me if I'm wrong, is that because I was a sinner, God would reject me.

Could you tell which is your logic, or if you have other logic, we'd be glad to hear it.

LH

its obvious you have not read the thread.

if a person does not change his sinful ways can God love that person?

God's commandments is what helps a person change from sin to righteousness

what is sin?

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

what law is being transgressed? you answer this one.

if the law is being transgressed because of sin it is written that sin separates us from God

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

if sin separated us from God which we read, what will bring us back to God?

lets read again what brings us CLOSER TO Jesus and how we abide in the Love of Jesus.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.


John 15:7
7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.