Jesus in the Talmud

[Yehoshua]

Again, I'll try to post the citations later this week. I am working full time and going to school full time. In the meantime if you're really that interested just go buy the book.

 

[TheRabbi]

I don't understand why you would open discussion on a book and then say that you're too busy to quote it to us. I'm not interested enough to buy it. Maybe I would be if you could show me that there was something of interest in it.

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm not interested in your book in the slightest. I'm interested in debating those who want to make claims on this forum that Jesus appears in the Talmud.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

Israel Finkelstein?

Thought that had a familiar ring to it.

 

[ChazakEmunah]

It should also be noted that is is allowable (per rabbinic writings) for a Jew to present a falsehood to the goyim

You better be able to prove this statement, or I will regard it as slander and report you for it.

 

[Yehoshua]

Bavli Manuscripts utilized:
Firenze II-I-7-9: Ashkenazi, 1177
Oxford Heb. d. 20 (Neubauer-Cowley 2675): Sephardic, Geniza, 13th Century
Karlsruhe Reuchlin 2: square Ashkenazi, 13th Century
New York JTS Rab. 15: Sephardic, 1291
Vatican ebr. 487/9: square Ashkenazi, 13th Century
Vatican ebr. 108: Sephardic, 13th- 14th Century
Munich Cod. Hebr. 95: Ashkenazi, 1342
Vatican ebr. 110: square Ashkenazi, 1380
Vatican ebr. 130: square Ashkenazi, 1381
Vatican ebr. 140: square Ashkenazi, 14th Century
Oxford Opp. Add. Fol. 23: square Sephardic, 14th-15th century
Paris heb. 1337: square Sephardic , 14th-15th Century
Paris heb. 671/4: Byzantine, 15th Century
Herzog 1: Yemenite, after 1565
Soncino printed edition: printed in Soncino, Barco, and Pesaro between 1484 and 1519
Vilna printed edition: 1880-1886

Citations:
b Shab 104b
Oxford 23, Vatican 108, Vatican 487, Munich 95, Soncino, Vilna
b Sanh 67a
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Karlsruhe 2, Barco, Vilna
b Sanh 103a
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Karlsruhe 2, Barco, Vilna
b Ber 17b
Oxford 23, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.7, Paris 671, Soncino, Vilna
b Sanh 107b
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Barco, Vilna
b Sot 47a
Oxford 20, Vatican 110, Munich 95, Vilna
b AZ 17a
Munich 95, Paris 1337, New York 15
QohR 1:8 (3)
Vatican 291, Oxford 164, Pesaro 1519, Constantinople 1520, Vilna, Jerusalem
b AZ 17a
Munich 95, Paris 1337, New York 15
qohR 1:8 (3)
Vatican 291, Oxford 164, Pesaro 1519, Vilna, Jerusalem
b AZ 27b
New York 15, Munich 95, Paris 1337, Pesaro, Vilna
b Sanh 43a-b
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Karlsruhe 2, Barco, Vilna
b Git 57a
Vatican 130, Vatican 140, Munich 95, Soncino, Vilna

 

[simchat_torah]

Bavli Manuscripts utilized:
Firenze II-I-7-9: Ashkenazi, 1177
Oxford Heb. d. 20 (Neubauer-Cowley 2675): Sephardic, Geniza, 13th Century
Karlsruhe Reuchlin 2: square Ashkenazi, 13th Century
New York JTS Rab. 15: Sephardic, 1291
Vatican ebr. 487/9: square Ashkenazi, 13th Century
Vatican ebr. 108: Sephardic, 13th- 14th Century
Munich Cod. Hebr. 95: Ashkenazi, 1342
Vatican ebr. 110: square Ashkenazi, 1380
Vatican ebr. 130: square Ashkenazi, 1381
Vatican ebr. 140: square Ashkenazi, 14th Century
Oxford Opp. Add. Fol. 23: square Sephardic, 14th-15th century
Paris heb. 1337: square Sephardic , 14th-15th Century
Paris heb. 671/4: Byzantine, 15th Century
Herzog 1: Yemenite, after 1565
Soncino printed edition: printed in Soncino, Barco, and Pesaro between 1484 and 1519
Vilna printed edition: 1880-1886

Citations:
b Shab 104b
Oxford 23, Vatican 108, Vatican 487, Munich 95, Soncino, Vilna
b Sanh 67a
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Karlsruhe 2, Barco, Vilna
b Sanh 103a
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Karlsruhe 2, Barco, Vilna
b Ber 17b
Oxford 23, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.7, Paris 671, Soncino, Vilna
b Sanh 107b
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Barco, Vilna
b Sot 47a
Oxford 20, Vatican 110, Munich 95, Vilna
b AZ 17a
Munich 95, Paris 1337, New York 15
QohR 1:8 (3)
Vatican 291, Oxford 164, Pesaro 1519, Constantinople 1520, Vilna, Jerusalem
b AZ 17a
Munich 95, Paris 1337, New York 15
qohR 1:8 (3)
Vatican 291, Oxford 164, Pesaro 1519, Vilna, Jerusalem
b AZ 27b
New York 15, Munich 95, Paris 1337, Pesaro, Vilna
b Sanh 43a-b
Herzog 1, Munich 95, Firenze II.1.8-9, Karlsruhe 2, Barco, Vilna
b Git 57a
Vatican 130, Vatican 140, Munich 95, Soncino, Vilna

Not to be mean, but merely stating a brutally honest response: That's one of the most useless posts in this entire forum.

1) You may continue posting here, but I'm not going to debate in the MJ section, only in the debate section.
2) Posting a bazillion citations without actually quoting material is useless, quote the actual passages not just the references... also, that's waaaay too much to respond to. It is much better to quote a passage or a couple of passages.
3) What the heck is Vatican ebr., Oxford Opp., etc? Those are not Talmudic references.

For reference, and debate guidelines, see the debate thread... it is linked for you here:
http://foru.ms/t6335926-formal-debate-challenge-does-jesus-appear-in-the-talmud.html#post40199185

 

[TheRabbi]

I'm going to use an old Yehivishe phrase that we pull out for a guy that likes to make assertions and then ramble of a bunch of citations.

"Show it to me inside"

 

[Yehoshua]

b Sanh 103a – that you will not have a son or disciple…like Jesus the Nazarene
b Ber 17b – that we will not have a son or disciple … like Jesus the Nazarene (some editions with text erased)
b Sanh 107b – not as Yehoshua b. Perahya who pushed Jesus the Nazarene away
b Sot 47a – not as Yehoshua b. Perahya who pushed Jesus the Nazarene away
b AZ 17a – One of the disciples Jesus the Nazarene found me
QohR 1:8 (3) – He told me a word in the name of Jesus son of Pandera
b AZ 17a – Thus I was taught by Jesus the Nazarene
qohR 1:8 (3) –Jacob….came to heal in the name of Jesus son Pandera
b Sanh 43a-b – on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene
b Git 57a – Jesus the Nazarene is going to be stoned
b Shab 104b -Was he the son of Stada and the son of Pandera?
b Sanh 67a – husband Stada, lover Pandera

Just because the Talmud in your Shul may not read the same way doesn't mean it wasn't there before. I would think you would know that the Talmud was heavily redacted through time, not only by the Rabbi's but by Christian overlords sensitive to anti-Christian rhetoric. You wanted quotes. There you go. You emphatically stated Jesus is nowhere to be found in the Talmud. According to the manuscript evidence you're wrong (there's much more presented in the book).

 

[TheRabbi]

Can you show me these exact citations? Can you look them up? Do you even know what all these abbreviations mean?

 

[ContraMundum]

3) What the heck is Vatican ebr., Oxford Opp., etc? Those are not Talmudic references.

I think you'll find that they are possibly Talmud references, arranged by edition or manuscript. (They give names to them often according to where they are stored or found, etc.....but I don't think we can actually check these up for ourselves anyway!)

Still, I don't think these quotes are terribly clear. The only version of the Talmud the modern day Rabbinic debaters will hear is the Babylonian of course. Citing earlier versions before alleged redactions seems pretty futile.

 

[simchat_torah]

b Sanh 103a – that you will not have a son or disciple…like Jesus the Nazarene
b Ber 17b – that we will not have a son or disciple … like Jesus the Nazarene (some editions with text erased)
b Sanh 107b – not as Yehoshua b. Perahya who pushed Jesus the Nazarene away
b Sot 47a – not as Yehoshua b. Perahya who pushed Jesus the Nazarene away
b AZ 17a – One of the disciples Jesus the Nazarene found me
QohR 1:8 (3) – He told me a word in the name of Jesus son of Pandera
b AZ 17a – Thus I was taught by Jesus the Nazarene
qohR 1:8 (3) –Jacob….came to heal in the name of Jesus son Pandera
b Sanh 43a-b – on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene
b Git 57a – Jesus the Nazarene is going to be stoned
b Shab 104b -Was he the son of Stada and the son of Pandera?
b Sanh 67a – husband Stada, lover Pandera

Wow, that's hardly quoting anything at all. "husbad Stada, lover Pandera"??? That's your entire quote for one of the references? That's your proof?

How about context? Just little snippets, and these are supposed to prove...??? what exactly?

But no matter, like I've reiterated MANY TIMES OVER, I will not be debating in this thread. Please take the debate to the debate thread I've directly linked twice now for you.

Do you even know what all these abbreviations mean?

lol, I think we all know the answer to that one

 

[simchat_torah]

I think you'll find that they are possibly Talmud references, arranged by edition or manuscript.

Possibly they were editions of manuscripts like you said, but he never answered, so I'm still completely in the dark. If they were editions of manuscripts, there weren't any Talmudic references, just edition names? I mean, talk about confusing.

I'm assuming that he has no clue himself and that he's merely copying/pasting from some other website.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Gil Student adresses most of these.

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html

http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesusnarr.html

 

[TheRabbi]

The only version of the Talmud the modern day Rabbinic debaters will hear is the Babylonian of course. Citing earlier versions before alleged redactions seems pretty futile.

Not true at all. The Tosefta and Braitot are always brought to clarify matters. The Talmud Yerushalmi, while it has always been used to clarify, is gaining great popularity in the land of Israel, with some giving it's rulings more authority than the Bavli.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The Talmud Yerushalmi, while it has always been used to clarify, is gaining great popularity in the land of Israel, with some giving it's rulings more authority than the Bavli.

Has it been published in English yet?

 

[TheRabbi]

Excerpt from an article by Rav David Bar-Hayim
(I apologize for the length, but I just didn't want to take too much out)
In the Talmud Bavli (Sanhedrin 24a) we read: "'He has placed me in the dark, like those that are long dead' (Ekha 3:6) - R. Yirmiyah said 'this refers to the Talmud of Bavel"! A radical statement to be sure, and our teacher Rashi leaves us in no doubt as to its meaning: "Their learning is uncertain." The holy Maharal adds that this is due to the extremely convoluted and legalistic argumentation typical of the Babylonian Talmud, as a result of which conclusions are often dubious, since one can almost always argue against a given point of view (Hidushei Agadoth).
It is pertinent to note that it is R. Yirmiyah who makes this statement. R. Yirmiya was born in Bavel and came to Eretz Yisrael as a young man. He was thus uniquely qualified to discriminate between the Torah of Bavel and that of Erez Yisrael. We are therefore not surpriscd to find the same R. Yirmiyah, upon hearing a certain explanation given in Bavel, remark: "Those foolish Babylonians! It is because they dwell in a land of darkness that they make such dark (incorrect) statements!" (B.T. Pesahim 34b). Once again, Rashi is very forthright: "When they do not know the true explanation for something, they come up with incorrect explanations".
R. Yirmiyah was not alone in his estimation. His teacher, R. Zera, also originally from Bavel, fasted 100 fasts upon coming to Erez Yisrael, to be able to forget the learning of Bavel (B.T. Bava Mezia 85a). Rashi says plainly, that this refers to the Babylonian Talmud with which we are familiar. Note also that these statements about the Torah of Bavel are found in the Talmud Bavli itself. We find no attempt to hide this information.
All of the above can only be understood in light of the observation of our Sages to the verse "And the gold of that land is good (Bereshith 2:12) "There is no Torah like the Torah of Erez Yisrael, and no wisdom like the wisdom of Eretz Yisrael" (Bereshith Raba 16,4). The above mentioned citations make it clear that the difference is very real, and that the words of our Rabbis are in no way an exaggeration.
So how does this affect or apply to us? R. Zera and R. Yirmiyah did not live in the days of the Mashiah. We in fact, in this generation, are much nearer to those glorious days. If we train ourselves to be aware of the reality and truth of these ideas, and open our minds and hearts to a truer appreciation of the miraculous worlungs of Torah within Am Yisrael as described above, we shall be well on the way to a new era in the mystical and wonderful conjoining between ourselves and G-d's Holy Torah.

 

[TheRabbi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRabbi
The Talmud Yerushalmi, while it has always been used to clarify, is gaining great popularity in the land of Israel, with some giving it's rulings more authority than the Bavli.

Has it been published in English yet?

As far as I know, it has not. I understand that Artscroll is working on it though.

 

[Talmidah]

Has it been published in English yet?

As far as I know, it has not. I understand that Artscroll is working on it though.

http://www.artscroll.com/Categories/yrt.html

 

[Yehoshua]

First Simchat, Let’s get several things straight. Pomposity scares me not. Secondly you don’t know anything about me so for you to be making ignorant unfounded assumptions about me is perhaps illustrative of your own personal diminutiveness. Kahane used to say, barking dogs never bite. So true. So let me explicate further. The references were not posted from a website. I cited them directly from the book. If you doubt the references, you are doubting the references from the head of the Judaic Studies department from Princeton, whose reputation among the scholarly community, I believe, would be in peril after publishing such spurious references. Now if you want you can go look at several of the manuscripts listed. http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/talmud/intro_eng.htm I admittedly don’t read fluidly Mishnaic Hebrew and Aramaic, so I am in this case trusting the scholarship of the aforementioned author. And just for your information the words such as Paris and Vatican are the names of the libraries where they manuscripts are housed. But I’m sure you already knew that. The Munich codex is generally regarded as the most trustworthy in relation to transmission.