jesus, god or son of god?

[Crimson Rose]

thereselittleflower,

I did not say that God moves from one form to the other.
I simply stated the ONE God makes himself known to us in 3 different ways
all 3 parts do exists at the same time, it just depends on what part we need at the time , as to how God will reveals himself to us at a point in time


Please do not put words into my mouth, if you want me to clarify something, just ask.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

She didn't say that you meant it that way, just that it supports a heresy, and we need to be careful about how we say things....

it actually fosters anoither of the ancient hereises known as Modalism . .

 

[brightlights]

Oops... better go back and read again John 1:3

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

 

[Reformationist]

thereselittleflower,

I did not say that God moves from one form to the other.
I simply stated the ONE God makes himself known to us in 3 different ways
all 3 parts do exists at the same time, it just depends on what part we need at the time , as to how God will reveals himself to us at a point in time

CR, Theresa is right (My God, am I saying that?). What you are professing is modalism. Modalism is the belief that a single personality, i.e., one woman, manifests itself in three different ways, i.e., a daughter, a mother, and a grandmother. God is not a single personality. The Godhead is a Trinity. It is three distinct personalities that are equally God but not in violation of the Church's long professed belief of monotheism.

Please do not put words into my mouth, if you want me to clarify something, just ask.

I don't think she was putting words in your mouth. I think she was expressing how your contention came across. If it means anything to you I took it the exact same way, and still do.

God bless

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

I see what your saying.... modern english translation here uses "through" and "by" with the same meaning.... some bibles will translate it as "by"....

Forgive me...

 

[thereselittleflower]

thereselittleflower,

I did not say that God moves from one form to the other.
I simply stated the ONE God makes himself known to us in 3 different ways
all 3 parts do exists at the same time, it just depends on what part we need at the time , as to how God will reveals himself to us at a point in time


Please do not put words into my mouth, if you want me to clarify something, just ask.

And does God reveal Himself as all three parts at the same time?

God is not three parts . . .He is 3 PERSONS . .

He is not one PERSON DIVIDED into 3 parts . .


HE is GOD in 3 PERSONS .. . UNdivided!


You may take offense at me calling your description modalism, but it is a type of modalism . .

God is not divided into parts.


Also, you used the example of "roles" . . .one person playing 3 different roles . . that is distinctive of modalism . . .





Peace in Him!

 

[Reformationist]

And does God reveal Himself as all three parts at the same time?

God is not three parts . . .He is 3 PERSONS . .

He is not one PERSON with 3 parts . .


HE is GOD in 3 PERSONS .. .


You may take offense at me calling your description modalism, but it is a type of modalism . .

God is not devided into parts.





Peace in Him!

Nicely said Theresa. I agree completely.

God bless

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

And does God reveal Himself as all three parts at the same time?

God is not three parts . . .He is 3 PERSONS . .

He is not one PERSON DIVIDED into 3 parts . .

You may take offense at me calling your description modalism, but it is a type of modalism . .

HE is GOD in 3 PERSONS .. . UNdivided!


God is not divided into parts.





Peace in Him!

Agreed!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Rosa . .

I want to elborate a little . . Mother, daughter, wife are roles, not parts of a person . . my arm is a part of me . . I AM a Mother, I AM a daughter . . I am NOT an arm . .


Mother, Daughter, Wife are ROLES and this is what modalism claims . . that God moves between roles, or modes . . .

I am a Mother and Daughter and a Wife at the same time, always . . but I do not act as a Mother all the time, and I do not act as a Daughter all the time, I do not act as a Wife all the time . . But I am all those all the time . . .

I move from one role to another depending on who I am dealing with . .

Your analogy above does the same thing . . and that is modalism . .


Peace in Him!

 

[NicodemusPrime]

hi Crimson Rose . .though this analogy seems to help a little in understanding the Trinity, it actually fosters anoither of the ancient hereises known as Modalism . .

God does not merely make Himself known to us in 3 different ways, He is 3 PERSONS ONE GOD . .. He does not move from one mode to another . . All 3 persons eternally exist, at the same time, distinct, yet ONE . . We see this at the Baptism of Jesus . . The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit . . all three present at the same time . . God did not move from one mode to another . . All 3 persons were present.

It is a mystery to our minds, and though some analogies come closer than others in explaining, in the end, if we take them to their logical conclusion, they are flawed and lead us off into heresy on one side or the other . .

There is NO analogy we can use to comletely help us understand the Trinity . .

Peace in Him1

I think you are stretching three sentances a little thin. Last time I checked the rules it said calling other peoples ideas heretical was a no no. You have gone to great lengths to make an example out of her because of a very simple analogy. It is not you place to tell other christians what is acceptable and what is not. Every preacher I have ever heard uses analogies genreously and just becuase you read into them too much doesn't make you right.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I think you are stretching three sentances a little thin. Last time I checked the rules it said calling other peoples ideas heretical was a no no. You have gone to great lengths to make an example out of her because of a very simple analogy. It is not you place to tell other christians what is acceptable and what is not. Every preacher I have ever heard uses analogies genreously and just becuase you read into them too much doesn't make you right.

It's not wrong to call heresy "heresy", it would be quite a different matter if she were calling her a heretic.

Modalism is an ancient heresy that was specifically dealt with by the ecumenical councils and the development of the Nicean Constantinople Creed. It is this creed that we refer to when we call ourselves Christian.

These posts have been made to correct an error of oversight... not to play the blame game....

Forgive me...

 

[NicodemusPrime]

Rosa . .

I want to elborate a little . . Mother, daughter, wife are roles, not parts of a person . . my arm is a part of me . . I AM a Mother, I AM a daughter . . I am NOT an arm . .


Mother, Daughter, Wife are ROLES and this is what modalism claims . . that God moves between roles, or modes . . .

I am a Mother and Daughter and a Wife at the same time, always . . but I do not act as a Mother all the time, and I do not act as a Daughter all the time, I do not act as a Wife all the time . . But I am all those all the time . . .

I move from one role to another depending on who I am dealing with . .

Your analogy above does the same thing . . and that is modalism . .


Peace in Him!

How do you ACT like a daughter, or wife, or mother. They are not roles. You either have given birth and you are a mother or not. If you are a woman you are someones daugther. If you are married you are a wife. These aren't roles and you cannot turn them on and off. If you meet the conditions of being all three then you are all three 24/7. You are making a mountain of a mole hill.

 

[In Christ Forever]

How do you ACT like a daughter, or wife, or mother. They are not roles. You either have given birth and you are a mother or not. If you are a woman you are someones daugther. If you are married you are a wife. These aren't roles and you cannot turn them on and off. If you meet the conditions of being all three then you are all three 24/7. You are making a mountain of a mole h

Kind of like this:
God the Father, The Holy Spirit "Mother" and Jesus Christ "the Son". That would make the Holy Spirit God's "Wife" After all, Jesus was born through the Holy Spirit if I read my bible right and of course through Mary also
Sounds like one big happy family of God to me. The word Family or Godhead sounds a little better than "trinity" and younger people appear to relate to it better I believe.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you -- unless you believed in vain. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith [is] futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, [and] has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I think you are stretching three sentances a little thin. Last time I checked the rules it said calling other peoples ideas heretical was a no no. You have gone to great lengths to make an example out of her because of a very simple analogy. It is not you place to tell other christians what is acceptable and what is not. Every preacher I have ever heard uses analogies genreously and just becuase you read into them too much doesn't make you right.

I am sorry you found my post offensive. However, if we do not defend orthodoxy, who will? The reason that we have a Christian Only section and it is limited to those who accept the Nicene Creed is BECAUSE there are those who claim to be Christian yet hld to unorthodox, heterodox beliefs . . heterodox means one believes a heresy . .

The Creeds of the Early Church were written SPECIFICALLY to combat Heresy . .

The Apostle's Creed to combat the Heresy of Gnosticism . ..

The Nicene Creed to combat the heresy of Arianism . .

Are you arguing in favor of letting those who claim to be gnostic christians to post here promoting their brand of christianity without pointing out that their brand of christianity is heresy?


Every heresy the Early Church combatted is finding expression today among those who don't even realize it is contrary to Christian belief . .

I cannot call someone a heretic . . but I can point out the heresy inherent in a belief if it is not orthodox . . there is nothing in the rules about that . . otherwise, we could not even have a Christian Only section as there would be no such thing as heresy and we would have an anything goes mentality.

The Trinity is the CORE tenent of the Christian faith . . .one cannot be a Christiain if one does not believe in the Trinity, for to be a Christian is to hold to the belief that God the Son, the 2nd person of the Trinity, became flesh for us, became one of us and died for us . .

Without a proper understanding of the Trinity, one cannot have a proper understanding of Christology . . Who Christ is.


I did not go to great lengths to make an example of a person . . but to speak to a simple analogy that is very faulty and leads one to a wrorng belief regarding the Trinity.

I have not called Rosa a heretic . . her analogy fails because it is intrinsically modalistic . . and that is what I pointed out.

I will defend the responsibility we have to promote a right belief in the Trinity . . doing so does not attack a person (which I did not do), but the idea . .

As OrthodoxyUSA said

These posts have been made to correct an error of oversight... not to play the blame game....
​

That is absolutely true. Thank you OrthodoxyUSA


It is most definitely the place of every Christianto defend the orthodox faith against heterodox views (ones that promote heresy). So it is indeed my place as it is every orthodox believers place to do so . ..

If I hold to a heretical belief, I sure hope that someone will point it out to me so I can change it!


Peace in Him!

 

[Terral]

Hi Brightlights:

Jesus, God or Gon of god? Well? And please provide scripture to back up your answers.

To begin a thread it is usually a good idea to pick a side and provide some information to support that premise. Then folks can jump in and takes sides. Jesus Christ is most definitely the Son of God. However, I do not expect you to believe me, so here are His witnesses:

Satan tempting Christ: “And the tempter came and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread." Matt. 4:3 and 4:6.

Two demon possessed men: Matt 8:29 And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?" Matt. 8:29.

Simon Peter: “Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Matt. 16:16.

Christ Himself: “And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God." Jesus *said to him, "You have said it nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN." Matt. 26:63+64.



2. “And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am." Luke 22:70.



3. “Do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?” John 10:36.



4. “But when Jesus heard {this,} He said, "This sickness is not to end in death, but for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified by it." John 11:4.

Mark: “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.” Mark 1:1.

The unclean spirits: “Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down before Him and shout, "You are the Son of God!" Mark 3:11.

The Centurion: “When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him, saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son of God!" Mark 15:39.

The Angel: “The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.’” Luke 1:35.

John the Baptist: "I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God." John 1:34.

Nathanael: Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel." John 1:49.

Martha: “She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, {even} He who comes into the world." John 11:27.

John: “But these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” John 20:31.

Paul: “Who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord.” Rom. 1:4, 9, 5:10, 8:3, 2Cor. 1:19, Gal. 2:20, 4:4, 4:6, Eph. 4:13, etc..

Scripture says beyond all doubt that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It also says beyond all doubt that God raised Him from the dead. Scripture warns folks about trying to make the Son into His God and Father, saying,

“The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.” 1John 5:10.

To make sure you understand perfectly clear, John says,

“Grace, mercy {and} peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” 2John 1:3.

Jesus Christ says,

“Jesus *said to her, ‘Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" John 20:17.

What is the heart and soul of our gospel today? That Christ died for sins and raised Himself from the dead? What are we to believe?

“That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” Romans 10:9.

“But these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.” John 20:31.

God bless,



Terral

 

[In Christ Forever]

To begin a thread it is usually a good idea to pick a side and provide some information to support that premise. Then folks can jump in and takes sides. Jesus Christ is most definitely the Son of God. However, I do not expect you to believe me, so here are His witnesses:

Of course He is the Son of God, it says so right in revelation!!! Hope I get to see Him like this I just don't want to be in "this church" when He comes[gulp]


18 " And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write, ' These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 "I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and [as] for your works, the last [are] more than the first. 20 "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 "And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. 22 "Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. 23 "I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts.

galat 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those [who are] Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

 

[thereselittleflower]

How do you ACT like a daughter, or wife, or mother. They are not roles. You either have given birth and you are a mother or not. If you are a woman you are someones daugther. If you are married you are a wife. These aren't roles and you cannot turn them on and off. If you meet the conditions of being all three then you are all three 24/7. You are making a mountain of a mole hill.

Let me see if I can help a little more . ..

I don't understand what you mean when you say, 'How do you ACT like a daughter, or a wife, or a mother" . .

Of COURSE you ACT LIKE a daughter, a wife or a mother . ..

They are roles ..

Just because you are all three doesn't mean you act as though you are all three at the same time ..

If I am being intimate with my husband, I am surely not acting like I am his mother!!

If I am talking to my mom, I am surely not acting like her wife!

Do you see that these are roles that come to us due to our station in life?


I am a person who has to take on these roles . . . . But having these roles or not having them does not make me any less a person or more a person . .

They are indeed roles . . they are not essential to who I am as a person .. I would still just as much be a person if I was not a wife, or not a mother . . . They are not part of what makes me a person.

And yes you can turn them on and off . . they are dependent on who you are interacting with at the time . . you do not act as a daughter to one of you children, or as a wife, but as a mother . . but you stop acting as a mother when you are alone with your husband . . .

I may be all three in one sense 24/7, but not demonstratably . .. If I get up in the middle of the night to tend to a child, I stop acting in the riole of wife and start acting in the role of mother . .. I am one at a time, with the others "on-call" so to speak. . . .

And inherent in these is the very fact that there is still one PERSON . .

And no, I am not making a mountain out of a molehill. To say that this analogy explains the Trinity adequately is to promote, even unintentionally, the idea that God moves between roles or modes . .. and that is an ancient heresy. I will not sugar coat it to make it more palatable. A heresy needs to be pointed out clearly.


In God, there are THREE PERSONS, One GOD . . UNdivided.


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hi Brightlights:





To begin a thread it is usually a good idea to pick a side and provide some information to support that premise. Then folks can jump in and takes sides. Jesus Christ is most definitely the Son of God. However, I do not expect you to believe me, so here are His witnesses:



Scripture says beyond all doubt that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It also says beyond all doubt that God raised Him from the dead. Scripture warns folks about trying to make the Son into His God and Father, saying,

Jesus Christ says,


What is the heart and soul of our gospel today? That Christ died for sins and raised Himself from the dead? What are we to believe?

God bless,



Terral

Terral

Is Jesus God?


Do you hold to the Nicene Creed?

Do you kow what the scriptures call the Messiah?

And He shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, Almighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace
​

Is Jesus God?




Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Kind of like this:
God the Father, The Holy Spirit "Mother" and Jesus Christ "the Son". That would make the Holy Spirit God's "Wife" After all, Jesus was born through the Holy Spirit if I read my bible right and of course through Mary also
Sounds like one big happy family of God to me. The word Family or Godhead sounds a little better than "trinity" and younger people appear to relate to it better I believe.

Though I understand the idea of giving a feminine reference to the Holy Spirit, Jesus refers to Him as "HE" in several places . .. so I would be very hesitant in doing as you did above . .

The Three persons of the Trinity are indivisiable and are of one essence, one being . . .not like a father mother and son who are 3 distinct persons and divisiible . ..

Our analogies always fall short . .

Sometimes it is better to content ourselves with the mysteries of our faith without trying to understand them in the minutest detail.


In the Early Churh, Mary is called the spouse of the Holy Spirit, the "Bride Unwedded" . And the Early Church believed Mary was given to them to be their spiritual mother . . a created being, not equal to God in any way, not part of the Trinity, but a special person with a special place in the Church, as a mother to the brothers and sisters of Her Lord and Son.


Peace in Him!

 

[Crimson Rose]

Look i didn't mean so make such a big scene
I just voiced my opion from the information that i have been taught

I am a Christian

But i am not catholic, and i dont think that my beliefs should have to be held up to catholic standards

I dont want to fight about this anymore,
I am not responding anymore

ROSE